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Old 01-14-2011, 04:51 PM   #466
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I think banning is a little extreme. Here is how I would do it. Limit stock to 25.5 turn motor,rubber tires, you can use limited boosted if you can handle it. For drivers with some experience 17.5 limited boosted and rubber tires. Mod foam tires 17.5 or better unlimited boost. Allow foams to be run on asphalt and carpet. I do think we need something like the slash for on road. My Slash class would be: Car 150 or less retail. Must be run bone stock no hop ups. Everyone must run the same gear ratio as set by track/race director.
Use rubber tires 25.5 limited boost. No more than 2 degrees of boost. Only priviteers allowed.
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Old 01-14-2011, 05:44 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by EddieO View Post
I find this whole thing weird.....

We raced with brush motors for 25+ years.......the hobby grew every year.....bigger and bigger races each year, up to the point snowbirds was near 1000 class entries and the IIC had a waiting list to get in.....

All of this took place with the supposed massive learning curve of brushed motors and Nicad/NIMH batteries.....

Enter brushless.........rules rushed to the racing arena by one company, that basically eliminated any immediate competition......fanatics rejoiced, realists voiced concern......racing went on.

Now we are seeing declining race numbers all over, sure blame the recession.....I don't buy it. I am very active in another expensive hobby and we have seen nothing but the prices on stuff go up to crazy amounts, yet attendance is smashing records every weekend...

Brushless was rushed to the market with a terrible design, plain and simple. Too much effort was put into to make them similar in speed to brushed motors, while also making sure no other current brushless company would have a vilable product any time soon.......by the time other companies came out with stuff, they were basically making the same motor slightly tweaked under the stupid rules that were basically written by one company.

Then, we got a retarded setup of what was equal to a stock motor.....first it was 10.5, then 13.5, then 17.5, then 21.5.......which is it? Again, rushed in the name of money before anyone really knew....pushed through by the fanatics to save racing.

Companies like Tekin, LRP, etc have worked under these retarded rules to produce products for racers that don't thermal every race. Tekin has gone even a step further with free updates on their speedos....

I basically see all this cool new stuff coming out as fun! We get to tune and tinker a whole different way....

Now, you want to limit technology in an effort to "bring in new blood".....to make stuff fair. I find it all retarded......you can't tell me with a straight face that learning to use a laptop, let alone bringing one to the track or owning one is harder than the rituals went through with brushed motors and NIMH batteries. Brushless motors and speed controls are EASY......there is less to programming than a lot of people make it out to be. Plus you have easy resources to figure out settings......but yet we want to dumb down the hobby to bring in this new blood.

I find it also retarded we are attempting to change rules for nationals so more new people will go.........listen, our nationals are a joke. Any idiot can show up and race. I actually saw a guy come to carpet nats in 2006 and it was his FIRST rc race.......really? I then watched him ruin multiple peoples weekend for his lack of ability to drive around the track without hitting anything.....Nationals is NOT the place for newbies....

Maybe instead of spending time trying to limit technology and making peoples perfectly good equipment worthless.......why not fix whats broken, the whole race system. Make regionals matter, make nationals matter......make it an honor to win these races like they used to be......quit making 100 classes so every guy can win.....does winning sportsman box stock carpet daylight one-armed 1s 21.5 make you feel good? Figure out a way to get a national points system, ROAR track or not....eliminate sponsored drivers from the stock classes....

So by all means, keep blaming your recession for dwindling numbers......keep blaming stuff is too fast or too complicated. The truth is, stuff was done incorrectly in a hastily manner regardless of the warning signs, all the time while the whole national structure of racing was degrading and being ignored.......banning a speedo isn't going to fix those.

And yes, I know I am biased and a criminal, no need to remind me

Later EddieO

this is good. (always enjoyed a good EddieO post (hey man!) )


this is true-- the Nats-- IMHO, you should have to qualify for, through your region. I mean, christ-- why on earth would I go across state, to race 10 locals at at track nobody has heard of at the regional, for a ROAR membership fee, inflated entry, gas, hotel, TIRES-- when I can just do the carpet nats in the spring, which eventually (or usually) are held at recognizable tracks..

<if you couldnt just "walk in" to the nats, there would BE reason= and then Regional races might MEAN something, just as racing at the nats>

this is what I alluded to pages ago. the big races, are not ROAR races. If you want to bring back a ROAR that means something, Bring back the regional races as qualifiers for the nats. You might even be wise to revamp the regions considering certian parts of the country are more saturated for specific classes IE- carpet racing in the northeast.

AND- dont forget Canada-- lots of good racers across the ditch..

edit***
and further more-- if your area doesnt run a carpet regional, yet you want to do the carpet nats, you should have to have either a top 30% (or something) finish at the LAST regional, one of the other top races- ex.. IIC, Cleveland, Halloween classic, etc.. or petition ROAR for the entry. Perhaps a "sponsor" from a driver who IS qualified= from another region.

the non roar races could be tied into roar in a sense that they could also be used as qualifiers in situations where a regional was not run- OR in my case-- LOL-- there isnt a Carpet track in my region for 500 miles lol..


edit again /\ this holds for all forms of racing.
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Old 01-14-2011, 05:56 PM   #468
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I'm so entertained. Well, the two threads that I'm reading definitely lets me know Novak is ahead of the game. Rob and the USVTA saw something that is coming regardless of what. So for me a GTB2 will get me into the A at the USVTA NATIONAL in VTA and RCGT....or Snowbirds, or Vegas, or Cleveland, or Novak race, or MSRA BTH, or US Champs even THUNDER RC RACEWAY. Bottom line I know what I'm running is just as fast as Joe blow, and IT'S LEGAL NO MATTER WHERE I RACE. AMEN!!!!!!!!!!, and did you guys know about.......

THUNDER JAM #3 and TRANS-AM THUNDER 1000?

and this.....

Here is the true solution to onroad for new and returning racers.

Start in true USVTA with Ballistic 25.5 and approved esc. Run it forever. Now if you feel the need to go faster. Move to RCGT/TC or any other classs tc offers(except boosted), but I've beat them too with stock spec. And the kick is that a $32 stator will get you there....and even mod can be done with the same esc...cause its still just a $32 stator...get the 5.5...make it happen

So in short VTA can easily be the class to help get ppl racing onroad. So let's try and spread the word around, so ppl will quit losing faith in the classes that are offered

well thats all I have...and of course none of these rules are in stone yet...so it might not even change at all...but whatever the outcome...lets just keep new guys coming in so we can grow the on-road scene

cya and good luck to the guys trying to make it happen..MEK "BATTMAN"
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Old 01-14-2011, 06:50 PM   #469
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While some say 17.5 is as "fast" as Modified thats simply not true. Lap time wise they may be very close but overall speed wise a Mod car is just insane. To me having cars that run similar lap times does not mean they are the same speed. 12th 17.5 cars are usually VERY close to Mod TC times at the big races now....Are they as fast? No where near it. But they have traction so they run similar lap times.

Modified cars can not put all the power down they have. 17.5 cars can and hence the reason they run lap times very close. But speed wise the Mod car still blows the other away. If we were to run Foam tires on both classes Mod would be at least 2 laps faster (1.5 sec per lap) than 17.5 boosted.

Traction is the biggest equalizer in racing.....period. If you go look at steve's post today in the ROAR forum he starts to elude more to some of his concerns (not being competitive in IFMAR races). I do believe we need a slower begineers, novice, sportsman, rookie or whatver (stock). But also believe we need a Super stock, Pro stock, expert stock, or whatever for the guys that in between Stock and Modified.

Generally in racing when you force someone to run a class they dont belong it bad things happen.

EA
i am agreeing but disagreeing(but not really). in my hands with a 1/12 car, a 17.5 boosted will probably be faster than mod. the mod will be quicker on the straight and much worse everywhere else. at present i have almost equal times between 13.5 boosted vs 17.5 boosted. (17.5 spec is too boring to consider) does that mean that 13.5 and 17.5 are equivalent? (not at all) now there is another fellow at my local track whose 17.5 boosted times rival his 13.5 boosted times (although both laptimes are 1sec faster than mine) this also does not mean the classes are interchangeable.

now i don't expect a new class to be invented to suit my skill level. but i would like to have a class that i can participate in that is interesting, a little challenging without causing grief for the rest of the field.

ROAR (in my opinion) needs to approve a range of classes, and the equipment that is deemed safe and fair for those classes. period.

which of these classes are chosen to be offered at a particular event, regionals nationals etc, is a question to be answered at the time the event is planned. there is no reason to offer every option, nor is there any reason to ban everything that isn't in the current nats schedule.
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Old 01-14-2011, 09:16 PM   #470
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Why doens't ROAR work with all of the tracks that are ROAR affiliated to come up with a point system. One for off-road and one for on-road.

For example:
All manufactures/hobby shops who sponsor someone whether it's a hobby shop giving a racer 15% off on all products on every purchase or a 50 or 60% off of retail should be requried to submit the list to ROAR and ROAR should send that list to all ROAR affiliated tracks. (NOTE: I said 15% off on all products on every purchase. This doesn't mean if I buy a shit load of stuff from my local hobby shop and they give me 15% off my total for this one time purchase that I'm a sponsored racer.)

If you have zero sponsors you run in class W. If you finish in the top 5 in the A-main after X races you move into class X. You as a ROAR track are required to submit the results to ROAR. ROAR has a database that maintains the information, so when regionals come up you can be approved to race in class X and are seated in the appropriate heat based on your results. Your results from the regional qualifiy you for that class in the Nationals and again placed in the appropriate heat.

If you have sponsors then you will not be allowed to run in class W. You will have to pick from class X/Y or Z what ever they are. Same rules apply for how you will be seated for the regionals and the regionals will place you in the appropriate heat for the nationals.

You could even make it so that larger club races or bigger events like Snowbirds or IIC count more depending if you make the A,B or C for how you'll be seated for the regional.

I'm rambling I know and none of this may make sense, but I thought I try and come up with something rather then just bitching about the issue at hand. I don't know how to fix it, I don't have all the answers, but it's something to think about.

You can't stop technology so you might as well fix the structure. I for one want the ability to buy one ESC and use it an any form of RC racing. Off-road, On-road, non-boosted, boosted or Mod.
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Old 01-14-2011, 09:54 PM   #471
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I have seen one thing in this debate that concerns me: It is a few are suggesting you have to qualify to go to certain races - ie the nationals. Am I reading and understanding that right?
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Old 01-14-2011, 10:18 PM   #472
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Yes, qualify....a majority of sports, hobbies, etc you have to QUALIFY to compete at Nationals.....not for ROAR, just be the first to sign up. There is NO incentive to compete at regionals, they mean NOTHING.......

Later EddieO
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Old 01-14-2011, 10:55 PM   #473
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Yes, qualify....a majority of sports, hobbies, etc you have to QUALIFY to compete at Nationals.....not for ROAR, just be the first to sign up. There is NO incentive to compete at regionals, they mean NOTHING.......

Later EddieO
+1

Nothing currently separates ROAR races from any other race, except a membership fee. A regional would mean a lot more if it had a prize, qualification to the nationals. The nats would mean more too. Scarcity drives up value..

That doesn't mean after all qualified entrants are signed up, it could be opened up to the masses (who have raced in their regional!!) for any slots left.
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:00 PM   #474
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I am sorry but I respectfully disagree with having to qualify to go to and be in a race. I think anyone should be able to go to ANY race and enter. Once you get there you should have to qualify, as you do at any race, but I think the concept of having to qualify to attend a race is BS. I am not going to have to go to race a, b, and c so I can attend race d. I bet the numbers at races you have to qualify to go to would fall through the floor. Now if they wanted to have a points system that ended at race "d" for the guys that went to all the races that is fine. Those that can go to those races more power to em. I can't go to all the races and travel consistently enough to do it. I also bet there are others that can't. I would also say if that happens I will either switch to dirt or find another hobby. I love club racing, but the thrill of the hobby is going to the big races and getting to pit with the top dogs in the industry and learn new things from them about what I am racing. Yeah if that goes down so will I.
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:20 PM   #475
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I guess pretty much every other form of racing has it wrong.......and rc has it right......I guess thats why regionals in so many forms of racing are successful, yet we have regionals where nobody shows up is acceptable.

So, let me ask you.....if you raced motorcycles, do you think it would be fair and such for you to race as you please all year, going to an event hear and there.....skip your regionals, then show up for nationals......and being not even skilled enough to be there, take out some guy who worked his ass off all year to be at nats, all so you can pit with the big dogs? You think those big dogs would be glad you were at nats after taking them out.

You realize you have to qualify for worlds right or do you think you should just show up and get to enter too, so you can race with the big dogs....

There are plenty of races like Snowbirds, Vegas, Cleveland etc that offer you the ability to race with the pros......not to mention they would be at regionals if they had to qualify.

I guess I should of stomped my feet more when I was a kid and we lost at regionals in little league.....I should of said, even though we didn't earn it, we should get to play in the little league world series.

Honestly, guys like you won't make me cry if you quit.......you basically want to be handed everything without actually earning it....

Robk, I agree for the most part.......though I still think the masses should still have to qualify in some way, maybe the slots hand down to those who cannot attend or something to that matter. Nationals should be the best of the best, even if that makes the event somewhat smaller in attendance....after all, we are trying to qualify our best for Worlds at these events.

Later EddieO


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I am sorry but I respectfully disagree with having to qualify to go to and be in a race. I think anyone should be able to go to ANY race and enter. Once you get there you should have to qualify, as you do at any race, but I think the concept of having to qualify to attend a race is BS. I am not going to have to go to race a, b, and c so I can attend race d. I bet the numbers at races you have to qualify to go to would fall through the floor. Now if they wanted to have a points system that ended at race "d" for the guys that went to all the races that is fine. Those that can go to those races more power to em. I can't go to all the races and travel consistently enough to do it. I also bet there are others that can't. I would also say if that happens I will either switch to dirt or find another hobby. I love club racing, but the thrill of the hobby is going to the big races and getting to pit with the top dogs in the industry and learn new things from them about what I am racing. Yeah if that goes down so will I.
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:32 PM   #476
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I agree with some of that, but come on, theres only 5 guys at a roar national trying to qualify for worlds, the rest of us are just there as filler between thier quals and mains.

I have no problem qualifying guys for MOD, or even Stock, but there is room for the average Joe to run sportsman or novice without qualifying.

btw, you coming to TZ to hangout for a minute at nats? if so, I'll buy you a juice bar ok fine a beer.
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:51 PM   #477
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I will be attending Carpet nats, merely as a spectator and probably doing motors for a few........assuming hockey does not interfere....

A soda will be fine, I am a light weight.....one beer and I am fairly happy.

Later EddieO
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:54 PM   #478
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I guess pretty much every other form of racing has it wrong.......and rc has it right......I guess thats why regionals in so many forms of racing are successful, yet we have regionals where nobody shows up is acceptable.

So, let me ask you.....if you raced motorcycles, do you think it would be fair and such for you to race as you please all year, going to an event hear and there.....skip your regionals, then show up for nationals......and being not even skilled enough to be there, take out some guy who worked his ass off all year to be at nats, all so you can pit with the big dogs? You think those big dogs would be glad you were at nats after taking them out.

You realize you have to qualify for worlds right or do you think you should just show up and get to enter too, so you can race with the big dogs....

There are plenty of races like Snowbirds, Vegas, Cleveland etc that offer you the ability to race with the pros......not to mention they would be at regionals if they had to qualify.

I guess I should of stomped my feet more when I was a kid and we lost at regionals in little league.....I should of said, even though we didn't earn it, we should get to play in the little league world series.

Honestly, guys like you won't make me cry if you quit.......you basically want to be handed everything without actually earning it....

Robk, I agree for the most part.......though I still think the masses should still have to qualify in some way, maybe the slots hand down to those who cannot attend or something to that matter. Nationals should be the best of the best, even if that makes the event somewhat smaller in attendance....after all, we are trying to qualify our best for Worlds at these events.

Later EddieO
You can assume whatever. This has nothing to with baseball, motorcycles, or the worlds. All I was saying it that there should be a division or something for everyone to race in at most events. Now if you think only certain guys should be allowed to race in a division at that race that is fine - especially if they have put the time in and spent the money to get there. "The Worlds" are a different story.

And nice touch on making me look like a baby. I have always been handed everything. I was expecting the same in this hobby.
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Old 01-15-2011, 12:38 AM   #479
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You typed it in not so many words, basically saying you would take your ball and go home.....

You fail to see the point. Our current race system is flawed. Right now, regionals are non-existant in most areas......attendance is a joke. Nationals isn't much better in many divisions.......there simply is NO pride in winning them anymore, not even much pride in going to them anymore. I point out other sports/hobbies that DO require you earn your place at the top events because the success they have......look how prestigious some of these sports/hobbies national events are and you would understand how mimicking them would be beneficial to RC.....

We can look RIGHT in our own hobby if you like...RC Crawling......laugh all you want, but these guys are big into this and spending lots of money. Nationals is a qualify system only, though they do run a last chance qualifier the day before.......regionals for these are hotly contested, even to the point a few spots got kinda nasty.....their last chance qualifier had almost 100 people come from across the nation just to try to get in....most tracks would get a boner just from having 100 people show up for a weekend race.....

But I guess if you are having fun at your 25 person regionals, assuming they are even held......and then going to your 70 person nationals....then so be it, we can just argue about speedos with blinky lights.

Later EddieO
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Old 01-15-2011, 03:52 AM   #480
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Eddie, I hope to bring up a proposal with the ExCom that requires running a regional championship in order to have a guaranteed spot in the Nationals. I like the idea of all the fast guys attending their regional and would like to see those races mean more than just another trophy race. I agree completely. I don't think everyone will be able to attend that goes to the regionals, so the remaining spots can be filled by drivers that were not able to attend for whatever reason. What would you think of that?

On another note, there's been some good feedback in this thread, which is food for thought. Of course there's the other grade-school kind as well, but there's far more useful information. Thank you.
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