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Old 01-14-2011, 01:47 PM   #451
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Couple of thoughts..... You (Tekin) have made the racer and the race organizer not able to use a blinking light as an ability to confirm a speedo is "legal". It is not possible to bring the proper equipment to the tracks to confirm the speedo’s are within the “spirit of the rules, so we (the racers) have to demand an alternative speedo for the spec classes. Why would I spend $1,000's to go to a race like Snowbirds/Vegas/Cleveland/Etc if the promoter has no ability to prove the blinking lights are within spec? All it takes is a special "team" version of the software that makes the lights blink but offers some advance or boost. People are commenting on not shying away from technology and the fact that we need to embrace it, agree to a point, but most new racers are having enough of a struggle learning the hobby why burden them a lap top to set up a speedo??? Advanced racers, yes, most of them embrace the technology. Remember racers, a spec stock class is meant for newer people to the hobby not some of these sponsored racers that have been around for years and years, that is what is hurting our local track, a new racer shows up and has to race the "spec" class with national champions that should be running a super stock class or mod.

I started a thread 2 months back about 208 being illegal and I got slammed by RANDY PIKE (tekin employee and ROAR electric committee member) DAWN SANCHEZ (at the time ROAR Prez) and you the President of Tekin for even implying that 208 was illegal b/c of advance built into it, you also said you just built a better mouse trap (212)!!!! Now several months later you now have to come clean...... TEKIN did not play fair so now the rules have to change.... I don’t understand why so many racers that want to go faster don’t just leave the stock class and move to an "open" speedo class!!!! The fastest 12th scale 17.5 "spec speedo" car at our track uses a Novak Havoc speedo he bought for $70..... Done deal! What is wrong with that? Leave the programmable speedos for the Super Stock & modified classes..... The software is cool, it just does not belong in a "spec" class.

At the Vegas race a Tekin won the “spec” class with the 208. At the ROAR off road nationals a Tekin won the Sportsman “spec” truck class using Tekin 208……. Well, it seems to me that those titles need to be reconsidered (Scotty & ROAR). Also, Tekin should be banned from completion in a “sportsman spec” class in 2011……

SAY NO TO BLINKING LIGHTS!!!!!!!
You are completely missing the point of the new rules. This is not a debate about software versions, which are no longer available, nor are they ROAR approved, this is about whether or not we all agree on letting programmable ESCs be run in the stock class in blink mode. It has been tested and said many times in this thread, our spec blink mode is no faster than any other ESC with the same spec blink mode with current 212 software.

What this really comes down to is this: programmable ESCs should be allowed as long as they have a spec mode that is easily identified by a specific light flash (per the manufacturer) by tech personnel. That's it, it's easy and it should be perfectly legal if all the programmable ESCs on the market are the same speed with their own spec software.

It really is sad that this has gone so far that people are flat out worried about cheating and do not trust the manufacturers. People will always try to cheat, but we, as a company and supporter of this industry, strive to be fair in the spec classes. We are not cheaters and we never lied to anybody, that is not what we are about.
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Old 01-14-2011, 01:55 PM   #452
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I've been sitting here catching up on my reading and one thing is bugging me...

And this just may be crazy talk...but it seems if some are saying that this company or that company are the ones pushing ROAR to ban programmable ESCs, with the intention of limiting Tekin market share? If that is actually the case, that is collusion and in most cases illegal in the US. Short of calling for a congressional hearing, that really bothers me. Putting ROAR rules aside for a second...I want to be able to buy the best product for the best price. Tekin has done a great job and has provided a top notch product. If this happened in a larger consumer sector we'd be hearing about lawsuits in the news. So Microsoft wants to have the government ban Mac OS or Chrome OS because their product may be better??? Um no that would never happen.

I hear a lot of people mention why do non ROAR members chime in on this subject...? It's because ROAR does influence the products we buy and race with. They set the parameters and manufacturers follow. But IF they are guilty of colluding with manufacturers to limit competition, then we as consumers need to raise a red flag and start asking WTF is going on.
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Old 01-14-2011, 02:03 PM   #453
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Under the current proposal there would not be a super stock any longer. Just stock and Mod. So you still force guys that dont belong in either to pick one....Destroy the stock class even worse or Wreck havock trying to race over your head in the Mod class and cost the "Pro" drivers possible money while racing.

EA
People don't realize, they don't have to run the same amount of motor as Paul L in mod. Run what they can handle! if 17.5 is "Not that much slower than mod" why do you need 2 stock classes and mod? If you eliminate a class, then people can run more heats. Instead of people running 2 classes of 3 qualifiing heats, run 1 class with 5 or 6 heats for big races. Like Larry F said, why spend that much money for big race travel to only race one class? But if you get more races in your one class, then I think your money well spent.

Bump up the entry cost 50%, get more racing on less money than running 2 classes. You can get heats sorted after timed practice. I love how people brag that "My 17.5 was almost turning mod times" but when we tell them to run open/mod, they just drag there feet and whine.

17.5 N/T and Open. Open class is all about going as fast as you can handle. People will still have close racing, because people can run as fast as they can with other people that are doing the same.

There will always be spec class people out there, I don't blame them, it is fun. Some of the best racing fun I had was in 13.5 TC. But does anybody think all this BS is good for the industry? Does anybody want to drop FAT coin with on road racing when we don't even know what classes we will be racing next week club racing. Were arguing like stupid middle school students over motors and if Tekin cheated 208 and if my rainbow light up speedcontrol is legal for spec racing.

Lets just have blinky class and open, with more rounds of qualifing. Or Reedy style 6 of 8 rounds points. Big races and club races need a good middle ground. If club races wanna run 21.5 and 17.5, and big races want to run 17.5 and open. (Which makes sence, since most stock racers do not have the funds to fly across the country to race the nats/iic/reedy/snowbirds, they just wanna hobby when they are not racing.)

Just shouting to the wind here. I dug out my blues to practice for the carpet nats, no matter what classes roar decides for stock over the next few years. Everybody needs to have fun in whatever class they run
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Old 01-14-2011, 02:24 PM   #454
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More food for thought....how many think timing is the ONLY way to boost performance, what if the v208 had something other than timing advance????? What will be the next LIMIT placed, come on guys this is the 21st century and there is/will be no limit to what is possible.

Racing in the US is based on a well defined set of rules....then the fast guys find every loop hole and push those limits, it's human nature.

As for Slowing things down....here we go again, there are no winners and everbody gets a participation ribbon. Correct me if I'm wrong but the US is the primary user of 'BOOST' and Turbo. The rest of the world does not need it. Last time I looked at results 'stock' in most places in the world is 10.5. There are enough slow classes, VTA, Mini-Cooper, various GT touring classes. ROAR as the path to IFMAR world's should be more concerned with developing the class base to run FULL MOD and to do that the middle class needs to be developed something like 13.5 boosted should be close to what the diffential we had from 19t to mod several years ago.

The big problem is not how fast we are going it is how easy a new guy can buy it and dump it into his RTR toy. When I started everybody built there own and learned to go fast as they simultaniously learned to drive and set-up and the limit to there advancement was how well the balanced all 3. Anyone spending $1200+ to run a National event should have a realistic expectation based on there abilities. I spent lots of time in the E and D mains at big events and viewed it as a learning expireience.

ROAR
leave Stock alone 17.5 Blinky mode, figure out how to rate ability to move the lifers to the next level
Re-invent the Mid class 13.5 Boosted guys can use the same esc and only need a motor change to run 2 classes
Full Mod - Sky's the limit

Just my $0.02
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Old 01-14-2011, 02:27 PM   #455
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Originally Posted by Owen RaCing View Post
People don't realize, they don't have to run the same amount of motor as Paul L in mod. Run what they can handle! if 17.5 is "Not that much slower than mod" why do you need 2 stock classes and mod? If you eliminate a class, then people can run more heats. Instead of people running 2 classes of 3 qualifiing heats, run 1 class with 5 or 6 heats for big races. Like Larry F said, why spend that much money for big race travel to only race one class? But if you get more races in your one class, then I think your money well spent.

Bump up the entry cost 50%, get more racing on less money than running 2 classes. You can get heats sorted after timed practice. I love how people brag that "My 17.5 was almost turning mod times" but when we tell them to run open/mod, they just drag there feet and whine.

17.5 N/T and Open. Open class is all about going as fast as you can handle. People will still have close racing, because people can run as fast as they can with other people that are doing the same.

There will always be spec class people out there, I don't blame them, it is fun. Some of the best racing fun I had was in 13.5 TC. But does anybody think all this BS is good for the industry? Does anybody want to drop FAT coin with on road racing when we don't even know what classes we will be racing next week club racing. Were arguing like stupid middle school students over motors and if Tekin cheated 208 and if my rainbow light up speedcontrol is legal for spec racing.

Lets just have blinky class and open, with more rounds of qualifing. Or Reedy style 6 of 8 rounds points. Big races and club races need a good middle ground. If club races wanna run 21.5 and 17.5, and big races want to run 17.5 and open. (Which makes sence, since most stock racers do not have the funds to fly across the country to race the nats/iic/reedy/snowbirds, they just wanna hobby when they are not racing.)

Just shouting to the wind here. I dug out my blues to practice for the carpet nats, no matter what classes roar decides for stock over the next few years. Everybody needs to have fun in whatever class they run
While some say 17.5 is as "fast" as Modified thats simply not true. Lap time wise they may be very close but overall speed wise a Mod car is just insane. To me having cars that run similar lap times does not mean they are the same speed. 12th 17.5 cars are usually VERY close to Mod TC times at the big races now....Are they as fast? No where near it. But they have traction so they run similar lap times.

Modified cars can not put all the power down they have. 17.5 cars can and hence the reason they run lap times very close. But speed wise the Mod car still blows the other away. If we were to run Foam tires on both classes Mod would be at least 2 laps faster (1.5 sec per lap) than 17.5 boosted.

Traction is the biggest equalizer in racing.....period. If you go look at steve's post today in the ROAR forum he starts to elude more to some of his concerns (not being competitive in IFMAR races). I do believe we need a slower begineers, novice, sportsman, rookie or whatver (stock). But also believe we need a Super stock, Pro stock, expert stock, or whatever for the guys that in between Stock and Modified.

Generally in racing when you force someone to run a class they dont belong it bad things happen.

EA
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Old 01-14-2011, 02:55 PM   #456
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Mod is too hard on our tight little tracks. Almost nobody has a track even close to being big enough to practice it, and those that do have jobs and lives that keep them from doing it often enough to be a factor. I really doubt we'll ever seen another contender in on-road mod come out of this country.
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Old 01-14-2011, 02:56 PM   #457
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I find this whole thing weird.....

We raced with brush motors for 25+ years.......the hobby grew every year.....bigger and bigger races each year, up to the point snowbirds was near 1000 class entries and the IIC had a waiting list to get in.....

All of this took place with the supposed massive learning curve of brushed motors and Nicad/NIMH batteries.....

Enter brushless.........rules rushed to the racing arena by one company, that basically eliminated any immediate competition......fanatics rejoiced, realists voiced concern......racing went on.

Now we are seeing declining race numbers all over, sure blame the recession.....I don't buy it. I am very active in another expensive hobby and we have seen nothing but the prices on stuff go up to crazy amounts, yet attendance is smashing records every weekend...

Brushless was rushed to the market with a terrible design, plain and simple. Too much effort was put into to make them similar in speed to brushed motors, while also making sure no other current brushless company would have a vilable product any time soon.......by the time other companies came out with stuff, they were basically making the same motor slightly tweaked under the stupid rules that were basically written by one company.

Then, we got a retarded setup of what was equal to a stock motor.....first it was 10.5, then 13.5, then 17.5, then 21.5.......which is it? Again, rushed in the name of money before anyone really knew....pushed through by the fanatics to save racing.

Companies like Tekin, LRP, etc have worked under these retarded rules to produce products for racers that don't thermal every race. Tekin has gone even a step further with free updates on their speedos....

I basically see all this cool new stuff coming out as fun! We get to tune and tinker a whole different way....

Now, you want to limit technology in an effort to "bring in new blood".....to make stuff fair. I find it all retarded......you can't tell me with a straight face that learning to use a laptop, let alone bringing one to the track or owning one is harder than the rituals went through with brushed motors and NIMH batteries. Brushless motors and speed controls are EASY......there is less to programming than a lot of people make it out to be. Plus you have easy resources to figure out settings......but yet we want to dumb down the hobby to bring in this new blood.

I find it also retarded we are attempting to change rules for nationals so more new people will go.........listen, our nationals are a joke. Any idiot can show up and race. I actually saw a guy come to carpet nats in 2006 and it was his FIRST rc race.......really? I then watched him ruin multiple peoples weekend for his lack of ability to drive around the track without hitting anything.....Nationals is NOT the place for newbies....

Maybe instead of spending time trying to limit technology and making peoples perfectly good equipment worthless.......why not fix whats broken, the whole race system. Make regionals matter, make nationals matter......make it an honor to win these races like they used to be......quit making 100 classes so every guy can win.....does winning sportsman box stock carpet daylight one-armed 1s 21.5 make you feel good? Figure out a way to get a national points system, ROAR track or not....eliminate sponsored drivers from the stock classes....

So by all means, keep blaming your recession for dwindling numbers......keep blaming stuff is too fast or too complicated. The truth is, stuff was done incorrectly in a hastily manner regardless of the warning signs, all the time while the whole national structure of racing was degrading and being ignored.......banning a speedo isn't going to fix those.

And yes, I know I am biased and a criminal, no need to remind me

Later EddieO
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Old 01-14-2011, 02:57 PM   #458
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Originally Posted by miller tyme View Post
ROAR leave Stock alone 17.5 Blinky mode, figure out how to rate ability to move the lifers to the next level
Re-invent the Mid class 13.5 Boosted guys can use the same esc and only need a motor change to run 2 classes
Full Mod - Sky's the limit
Word! I couldn't agree more!

This would work well not only in onroad but offroad as well.
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Old 01-14-2011, 03:00 PM   #459
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I find this whole thing weird.....
That's criminally biased
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Old 01-14-2011, 03:02 PM   #460
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People!!! The Genie is out of the bottle!

There where several of us that warned about this when brushless and lipo was touted as being the savior of RC car racing. There are only a handful of racers, if any, that understand the software that ESC manufactures have created let alone know how to program that software in their ESCís! I think most everyone was naive to think that computerizing our hobby would be the great equalizer. It only made it worse. Now that we have been shocked back into reality by the fact that we donít know whatís inside our speed controls, we want to try and stuff the Genie back in the bottle. Itís too late! There should only be two classes: Stock ramped and modified. All thatís left to do is pick a wind for stock. 21.5 ramped would be a good stock class. If local clubs want to do some different formulas to increase participation on a local level, great! But when it comes to a ROAR regional or national event, there should only be two classes.

If you really want to go to a truly spec, non ramped class, then go back to a servo, resistor and brushed motor because as long as there is computers involved, you will never know what you are getting.
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Old 01-14-2011, 03:06 PM   #461
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I don't feel brushless has anything to with the problem , but ...

The regionals Eddie mention ?

Start there first and make racing with Roar worthy again ...
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Old 01-14-2011, 03:17 PM   #462
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Originally Posted by EddieO View Post
I find this whole thing weird.....

We raced with brush motors for 25+ years.......the hobby grew every year.....bigger and bigger races each year, up to the point snowbirds was near 1000 class entries and the IIC had a waiting list to get in.....

All of this took place with the supposed massive learning curve of brushed motors and Nicad/NIMH batteries.....

Enter brushless.........rules rushed to the racing arena by one company, that basically eliminated any immediate competition......fanatics rejoiced, realists voiced concern......racing went on.

Now we are seeing declining race numbers all over, sure blame the recession.....I don't buy it. I am very active in another expensive hobby and we have seen nothing but the prices on stuff go up to crazy amounts, yet attendance is smashing records every weekend...

Brushless was rushed to the market with a terrible design, plain and simple. Too much effort was put into to make them similar in speed to brushed motors, while also making sure no other current brushless company would have a vilable product any time soon.......by the time other companies came out with stuff, they were basically making the same motor slightly tweaked under the stupid rules that were basically written by one company.

Then, we got a retarded setup of what was equal to a stock motor.....first it was 10.5, then 13.5, then 17.5, then 21.5.......which is it? Again, rushed in the name of money before anyone really knew....pushed through by the fanatics to save racing.

Companies like Tekin, LRP, etc have worked under these retarded rules to produce products for racers that don't thermal every race. Tekin has gone even a step further with free updates on their speedos....

I basically see all this cool new stuff coming out as fun! We get to tune and tinker a whole different way....

Now, you want to limit technology in an effort to "bring in new blood".....to make stuff fair. I find it all retarded......you can't tell me with a straight face that learning to use a laptop, let alone bringing one to the track or owning one is harder than the rituals went through with brushed motors and NIMH batteries. Brushless motors and speed controls are EASY......there is less to programming than a lot of people make it out to be. Plus you have easy resources to figure out settings......but yet we want to dumb down the hobby to bring in this new blood.

I find it also retarded we are attempting to change rules for nationals so more new people will go.........listen, our nationals are a joke. Any idiot can show up and race. I actually saw a guy come to carpet nats in 2006 and it was his FIRST rc race.......really? I then watched him ruin multiple peoples weekend for his lack of ability to drive around the track without hitting anything.....Nationals is NOT the place for newbies....

Maybe instead of spending time trying to limit technology and making peoples perfectly good equipment worthless.......why not fix whats broken, the whole race system. Make regionals matter, make nationals matter......make it an honor to win these races like they used to be......quit making 100 classes so every guy can win.....does winning sportsman box stock carpet daylight one-armed 1s 21.5 make you feel good? Figure out a way to get a national points system, ROAR track or not....eliminate sponsored drivers from the stock classes....

So by all means, keep blaming your recession for dwindling numbers......keep blaming stuff is too fast or too complicated. The truth is, stuff was done incorrectly in a hastily manner regardless of the warning signs, all the time while the whole national structure of racing was degrading and being ignored.......banning a speedo isn't going to fix those.

And yes, I know I am biased and a criminal, no need to remind me

Later EddieO
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Old 01-14-2011, 03:25 PM   #463
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That's actually pretty catchy

Cherry, I am not saying brushless is the problem.......I am saying its the scapegoat at this point.....sure would of been interesting to see 2-3 years of brushed motors and LiPo batteries though

Later EddieO

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That's criminally biased
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Old 01-14-2011, 03:37 PM   #464
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Eddie- I agree with your post. It just feels with all the brushless that we never settle on a class. Things are always changing and things never seem to settle down. The selling point of brushless and Lipo was how much more simple they would be for RC racing. I think the equipment is simple but the governing of the classes has become much more complicated.
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Old 01-14-2011, 03:42 PM   #465
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I don't see how a "spec" esc is any answer, it also has firmware and if a blinky could cheat with firmware so could a "spec" esc. It can't be that hard we chip our real cars all the time and they weren't that hard either...


blinky is as good as we will get without having to spend more $ we were supposed to be saving



fixed pinion spur no boost is the answer for the newbs
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