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Old 01-13-2011, 04:18 PM   #391
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It seems like people who complain about the classes, boost, timing and etc., are the ones that welcome the new proposed ROAR rules.....that's fine with me. I've been an avid racer since 1993 and I have see how much this sport has evolved. But lets get something straight here, the manufactures really are giving racers what they want........if you have been racing for a long time you know that after some time you want to be "faster" and so on.

Let me just lay it down to what i'm thinking. First of all, I am not going to buy a new "spec" speed control....that is bs. I can detune the one I have if needed. ROAR is trying to get the outsiders (newbies) to come in to racing so the sport can grow. Always remember there are other reasons to why outsiders don't race and like someone said earlier in the thread, car, radio, battery, charger, tires, speed control, usb cable for the speed control, computer and etc...........

Is there an answer to all of this...............I don't think there will be one that everyone will agree on, and that is for sure.


ROAR is trying to give us some type of basis to keep people from cheating and killing the sport......I can't blame them for that.......

Do you guys remember the Black Diamond speed control at the IIC one year? I heard it was unbelievable how fast these speed controls were......was that fair? To me, it wouldn't have mattered but to others wouldn't have thought as I would...
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Old 01-13-2011, 04:51 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Tekin Prez View Post
There is no doubt we are motivated to police ourselves and they would have gone public even without roar. It is not an issue you need to worry about or convince others to worry about.
yea, right ....

I think ROAR did their job on that one !
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Old 01-13-2011, 05:04 PM   #393
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I understand exactly what you mean about an ESC that can grow with a racer but with past problems ROAR is looking to prevent this from being something ROAR wants to never have happen again. This is how you move forward from a mistake....you look to eliminate the possibility of the mistake from ever taking place again.

Based on the current technology, I don't see how the possibility will EVER be eliminated. If it's not software, it will be hardware. Sorry, but this can of worms was opened when the technology change was rapidly adopted... By guess who... ROAR... I started noticing a decline in racers shortly thereafter.

If folks are worried about who's running what version of software in their blinky speedos, you'll now also need to be worried about who's switched out circuit boards in their assumed-to-be spec speedo. If you are unwilling to trust folks with software, the same trust issue should apply to hardware.
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Old 01-13-2011, 05:37 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by fuelgun View Post
If folks are worried about who's running what version of software in their blinky speedos, you'll now also need to be worried about who's switched out circuit boards in their assumed-to-be spec speedo. If you are unwilling to trust folks with software, the same trust issue should apply to hardware.
So when people start re-fetting boards like the miniz crowd and can pull 3 more teeth on the pinion then what?
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Old 01-13-2011, 05:41 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by fuelgun View Post
Based on the current technology, I don't see how the possibility will EVER be eliminated. If it's not software, it will be hardware. Sorry, but this can of worms was opened when the technology change was rapidly adopted... By guess who... ROAR... I started noticing a decline in racers shortly thereafter.

If folks are worried about who's running what version of software in their blinky speedos, you'll now also need to be worried about who's switched out circuit boards in their assumed-to-be spec speedo. If you are unwilling to trust folks with software, the same trust issue should apply to hardware.
If when you go to a national race there is a hand out ESC with motor that you must use this will stop it. The Cirtix ESC and Motor combo has been sold for 80 bucks or less....Im sure other companies can do the same thing. The issue will be to get the price down so its easy for people to take. Im sure if ROAR or the host site asked them they could maybe be sold at a cheaper price for the nationals....seems to work just fine in for the ETS in Europe.

Are you for real.....talking about people changing out the circuit boards.... Have someone do it first then cross that road....much like V208 now you need to work to fix it. People will always look for a way to cheat....once they do it you find it and fix the issue.
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Old 01-13-2011, 05:50 PM   #396
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If when you go to a national race there is a hand out ESC with motor that you must use this will stop it. The Cirtix ESC and Motor combo has been sold for 80 bucks or less....Im sure other companies can do the same thing. The issue will be to get the price down so its easy for people to take. Im sure if ROAR or the host site asked them they could maybe be sold at a cheaper price for the nationals....seems to work just fine in for the ETS in Europe.

Are you for real.....talking about people changing out the circuit boards.... Have someone do it first then cross that road....much like V208 now you need to work to fix it. People will always look for a way to cheat....once they do it you find it and fix the issue.
So, is the issue trust, or cost. If its cost, why not keep the blinky? If it's trust, we're better off to plan than to react. If not, it will be same story but different day not too far down the road.
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Old 01-13-2011, 05:56 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by fuelgun View Post
So, is the issue trust, or cost. If its cost, why not keep the blinky? If it's trust, we're better off to plan than to react. If not, it will be same story but different day not too far down the road.
The issue isnt cost poeple are going to spend money on this no matter what.....hence the reason there are 500+ dollar Sedan kits. I was just saying that there is a cheap way to solve the issue with out fear of tampering with the software. Trust....the trust has already been broken once thats why we are where we are....right or wrong its whats lead us to this point. People will always look for an advantage one way or another...but you dont know what they are going to do unless they do it....its always been this way and will keep being this way. That is unless your crystal ball works better then mine???
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Old 01-13-2011, 06:01 PM   #398
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Nobody went public at all. I was told to keep it quiet when i was told about it. Then ROAR did not say publicly why there was a problem. Then it has been characterized as a simple mistake. Can you take this opportunity to tell us exactly what happened? You are calling me a liar, so please let us know the real story as you see it. Can you see why there is apprehension in relation to this subject?
Not making a big public deal about it was intentional and determined to be in the best interest of RC racing to not create mistrust of the manufacturers. It was public in that 212 was provided and 208 was made obsolete. We knew it would still be a controversy, but what good does more details do? It is a done deal and we all learned from it. In fact things may be better now and more sure for the future because everyone's blinky mode has been verified.

I am not calling you a liar, just giving you more information so you can correct your statements:

1 - Spec modes are equal and equal to non boosting esc’s, technically and on the track.
2 - Spec modes being improved in the future is not a concern due to the very specific definition now in place because of this issue.
3 - Manufacturers absolutely police each other and would go public.

You clearly have an opinion and feel strongly about it. You are concerned about fair competition and do not think the manufacturers are capable of playing fair or the users can be controlled from cheating. I have not seen anyone provide another solid reason for banning programmable esc’s.

The fear of manufacturers cheating is just ridiculous and no chance it would not be detected very quickly. If nothing else 208 proves that and verifies that spec mode is currently fair and always will be. I assure you the competition will be testing anything we offer and let us know very quickly if they can even invent anything to question or hassle us about. These are businesses with far more at stake than a bowling trophy in the entry level class.

User cheating is just a sad part of human nature and why we have tech inspections. Fear of cheating by a few is a lame reason to make a decision that effects the other 99.9% of the people and thousands of existing products.

Intentional or not this agenda clearly rewards the market laggers that did not keep up and punishes the market leaders that invested time and resources to give the customers what they demanded 10 mins ago….. and followed up with the blinky mode some want now, for FREE.

If people do not see the value in having the option to go fast or slow, and get updates when needed, then don’t buy it. It is still a free country at this point. There are plenty of low cost options already and no reason to ban the other choices that provide more value to the user unless they provide an unfair advantage, which they do not in this case.

We made an honest mistake in the very complex software, the other manufacturers found it for us, and we fixed it as soon as we were aware of it. Nothing more to it than that and again proving we do police ourselves and the public does not need to be concerned. People just need to know it was detected quickly, it is right now, and will not happen again. Thank goodness for updateable esc’s

It is all about cheating and unjustified fear of what might happen. No one has presented any real facts to justify the banning of any products that I have seen, and I have been looking hard.

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Old 01-13-2011, 06:03 PM   #399
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How much of this is being fueled by Novak?
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Old 01-13-2011, 06:18 PM   #400
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So when people start re-fetting boards like the miniz crowd and can pull 3 more teeth on the pinion then what?
how about a claiming rule?
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Old 01-13-2011, 06:26 PM   #401
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How much of this is being fueled by Novak?
id say all. and the reason hobbywings deal with horizon went south. just guessin
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Old 01-13-2011, 06:53 PM   #402
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My Thankx to Jim Campbell for taking time to explain the 'Business' side of this argument.

Our local track [OVRCCC} adopted the 'blinky' specs for non-boosted TC 17.5 this carpet season, and I as a regular TC driver had dropped out of the class due to the increased speeds of the 'boosted' stuff last year, this year we have seen an increase in this class due to the closeness of racing,

We [OVRCCC] do take some rules from ROAR and VTA, but modify them to suit our local needs, and I would guess that is the case thru-out the USA,

Untill everyone adopts ROAR rules at the Local level I really see no problem, But healthy discussion is great, I have been rreading every post from the 1st, very impressive, [except for the finger pointing LOL!!]

And where in heavens sake is the "ROAR forum talked about in the 1st couple of pages?? I know I'm a dumb hillbilly, but I can't find it

Thankx, Bill

ps yes, I'm a ROAR member
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Old 01-13-2011, 07:43 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by Kevin K
...
I understand exactly what you mean about an ESC that can grow with a racer but with past problems ROAR is looking to prevent this from being something ROAR wants to never have happen again. This is how you move forward from a mistake....you look to eliminate the possibility of the mistake from ever taking place again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuelgun View Post
Based on the current technology, I don't see how the possibility will EVER be eliminated. If it's not software, it will be hardware. Sorry, but this can of worms was opened when the technology change was rapidly adopted... By guess who... ROAR... I started noticing a decline in racers shortly thereafter.

If folks are worried about who's running what version of software in their blinky speedos, you'll now also need to be worried about who's switched out circuit boards in their assumed-to-be spec speedo. If you are unwilling to trust folks with software, the same trust issue should apply to hardware.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Haynes View Post
So when people start re-fetting boards like the miniz crowd and can pull 3 more teeth on the pinion then what?
so then my idea of a handout esc, was right on the mark.
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Old 01-13-2011, 07:48 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by speedybill View Post
My Thankx to Jim Campbell for taking time to explain the 'Business' side of this argument.

Our local track [OVRCCC} adopted the 'blinky' specs for non-boosted TC 17.5 this carpet season, and I as a regular TC driver had dropped out of the class due to the increased speeds of the 'boosted' stuff last year, this year we have seen an increase in this class due to the closeness of racing,

We [OVRCCC] do take some rules from ROAR and VTA, but modify them to suit our local needs, and I would guess that is the case thru-out the USA,

Untill everyone adopts ROAR rules at the Local level I really see no problem, But healthy discussion is great, I have been rreading every post from the 1st, very impressive, [except for the finger pointing LOL!!]

And where in heavens sake is the "ROAR forum talked about in the 1st couple of pages?? I know I'm a dumb hillbilly, but I can't find it

Thankx, Bill

ps yes, I'm a ROAR member
http://roarracing.org/4rmb/showthrea...11-Carpet-Nats

here is the link, you may have to register before it will let you in as well as waiting for the admin to approve the registeration.
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Old 01-13-2011, 07:57 PM   #405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekin Prez View Post
Not making a big public deal about it was intentional and determined to be in the best interest of RC racing to not create mistrust of the manufacturers. It was public in that 212 was provided and 208 was made obsolete. We knew it would still be a controversy, but what good does more details do? It is a done deal and we all learned from it. In fact things may be better now and more sure for the future because everyone's blinky mode has been verified.

I am not calling you a liar, just giving you more information so you can correct your statements:

1 - Spec modes are equal and equal to non boosting esc’s, technically and on the track.
2 - Spec modes being improved in the future is not a concern due to the very specific definition now in place because of this issue.
3 - Manufacturers absolutely police each other and would go public.

You clearly have an opinion and feel strongly about it. You are concerned about fair competition and do not think the manufacturers are capable of playing fair or the users can be controlled from cheating. I have not seen anyone provide another solid reason for banning programmable esc’s.

The fear of manufacturers cheating is just ridiculous and no chance it would not be detected very quickly. If nothing else 208 proves that and verifies that spec mode is currently fair and always will be. I assure you the competition will be testing anything we offer and let us know very quickly if they can even invent anything to question or hassle us about. These are businesses with far more at stake than a bowling trophy in the entry level class.

User cheating is just a sad part of human nature and why we have tech inspections. Fear of cheating by a few is a lame reason to make a decision that effects the other 99.9% of the people and thousands of existing products.

There is an agenda here that clearly rewards the market laggers that did not keep up and punishes the market leaders that invested time and resources to give the customers what they demanded 10 mins ago….. and followed up with the blinky mode some want now, for FREE.

If people do not see the value in having the option to go fast or slow, and get updates when needed, then don’t buy it. It is still a free country at this point. There are plenty of low cost options already and no reason to ban the other choices that provide more value to the user unless they provide an unfair advantage, which they do not in this case.

We made an honest mistake in the very complex software, the other manufacturers found it for us, and we fixed it as soon as we were aware of it. Nothing more to it than that and again proving we do police ourselves and the public does not need to be concerned. People just need to know it was detected quickly, it is right now, and will not happen again. Thank goodness for updateable esc’s

It is all about cheating and unjustified fear of what might happen. No one has presented any real facts to justify the banning of any products that I have seen, and I have been looking hard.

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to quote a scene from "Bazzling Saddles"

I'm glad all the young folks were here to witness and hear this orginal frontier yibberish. Or something close to that.

Your not suggesting with some of the above, that ALL the spec modes and esc's are equal are you, I can tell you for a FACT that the SP spec esc is NOT as good as a SP/TEKIN/NOVAK with spec software. end of that story

I also have issue with the statement that "people don't need to know" we alrightly then.

I for one would have so much more respect for you and the company had we just been simply told.

"We made an honest mistake in the very complex software, the other manufacturers found it for us, and we fixed it as soon as we were aware of it."

nothing fancy, just plain and simple, the "our software was never deemed illegal" was back door double talk, yea, it never had that label put on, but here it is in this public forum, it was.

Thanks for the info, now I can purchase one of your esc and do some testing to find that magic .1 I've been looking for
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