Proposed R.O.A.R. rules change
01-13-2011, 04:56 AM
#301
Eric.....has ROAR thought about setting up the classes for Carpet and Asphalt independently?
For Carpet Sedan they could go with
21.5 non boost
17.5 non boost
17.5 open...most carpet tracks the lap times in mod are very close to this but more people race this class then they do Mod.
For Asphalt Sedan they could go with
21.5 non boost
17.5 open
Mod...IFMAR qualifier(most IFMAR races are on asphalt for sedan any way)
Racers can still race two classes but they cant race the top and bottom class at the same event. Also keep the bottom class amature on all surfaces.
This way everyone that races more of one type of racing will know what they are in for going to their respective national.
As far as 12th scale and WGT they seem to be doing just fine the way they are.
For Carpet Sedan they could go with
21.5 non boost
17.5 non boost
17.5 open...most carpet tracks the lap times in mod are very close to this but more people race this class then they do Mod.
For Asphalt Sedan they could go with
21.5 non boost
17.5 open
Mod...IFMAR qualifier(most IFMAR races are on asphalt for sedan any way)
Racers can still race two classes but they cant race the top and bottom class at the same event. Also keep the bottom class amature on all surfaces.
This way everyone that races more of one type of racing will know what they are in for going to their respective national.
As far as 12th scale and WGT they seem to be doing just fine the way they are.
Andrew,
obviously i can't speak for anyone but myself, so to me the burning issue is roar's desire to outlaw the equipment i have because i can't be trusted otherwise to play by the rules. or because of the possibility that there is someone else who is so clever as to hack into the ESC's firmware and make it blink when it shouldn't.
to me it is difficult to feel that all this concern for hapless racers isn't really disingenuous (sp?), when really the concern seems to be for helping out the hapless manufacturers that can't or won't produce a speedo that is reconfigurable.
as far as hacking speedo software, i suggest that if these people exist then their talents are being wasted on rc cars, they should consider a future in the software security industry where they can really benefit from their efforts.
PS: kudos to the speedpassion marketing department who took an inferior product and turned it into a competitive advantage, and then got the competition made obsolete to help the "sport grow.". this whole thing sounds like the 'no child left behind' crap foisted on us by georgebush and tedkennedy, where the class can only progress as fast as the slow kid picking his nose in the back of the room.
obviously i can't speak for anyone but myself, so to me the burning issue is roar's desire to outlaw the equipment i have because i can't be trusted otherwise to play by the rules. or because of the possibility that there is someone else who is so clever as to hack into the ESC's firmware and make it blink when it shouldn't.
to me it is difficult to feel that all this concern for hapless racers isn't really disingenuous (sp?), when really the concern seems to be for helping out the hapless manufacturers that can't or won't produce a speedo that is reconfigurable.
as far as hacking speedo software, i suggest that if these people exist then their talents are being wasted on rc cars, they should consider a future in the software security industry where they can really benefit from their efforts.
PS: kudos to the speedpassion marketing department who took an inferior product and turned it into a competitive advantage, and then got the competition made obsolete to help the "sport grow.". this whole thing sounds like the 'no child left behind' crap foisted on us by georgebush and tedkennedy, where the class can only progress as fast as the slow kid picking his nose in the back of the room.
First off, I'm currently a ROAR member, and this is the type of thing that will GREATLY influence my decision to re-up. This has been a civil and semi-productive discussion, so now I'm here to muck all that up.
I'm always concerned with the feeling that we need to "dumb-down" a hobby that I have been passionate about for 2/3rds of my life.
A problem that I see currently, is that MOD has become undrivable for the masses, leaving us with only spec classes for the majority of the On-Road community. In this scenario we have tried to find a simple solution to suit the VASTLY different skillsets of the racers who populate these classes.
Add to that the issues that arise from having 2 different voltage levels for the two different scales of car w/in the On-Road segment. Some say 7.4v boosted 17.5 TC is too fast, and that's possibly true. I would contend that 3.7v 17.5 spec 12th scale is about as fun as watching grass grow, and my home track is only 63'x33'.
IMO, the best solution is to leave BOOSTED 17.5 as the "stock" or "Super-Stock" etc. class for TC and 12th scale. The existing equipment can still be utilized by the racers who'll continue to run these classes.
Now to make racing more attractive to the NEW racer: Institute a NEW 21.5 ZERO speedo AND motor timing class. Require NEW non-updatable speedos and NEW 21.5 motors for this class. The motors should be sealed, as this would prevent the use of tuning rotors,ceramic bearings, or any shady internal mods. I would also implement a max C-rating, and capacity rule to limit the amount of overall power available, in the hope of curbing the "gear it to meltdown" syndrome.
Note that NEW equipment is only necessary in the NEW class. If there are racers that want to step down to the NEW class, they can purchase the NEW equipment, which they would have to do anyway if they supported the current proposal by ROAR. The racers who choose to continue running the 17.5 boosted class (which I believe is the majority), could continue on, business as usual.
Under my proposal, a new class for more casual, and brand new racers has been introduced without alienating the existing racer base.
Just a thought.
I'm always concerned with the feeling that we need to "dumb-down" a hobby that I have been passionate about for 2/3rds of my life.
A problem that I see currently, is that MOD has become undrivable for the masses, leaving us with only spec classes for the majority of the On-Road community. In this scenario we have tried to find a simple solution to suit the VASTLY different skillsets of the racers who populate these classes.
Add to that the issues that arise from having 2 different voltage levels for the two different scales of car w/in the On-Road segment. Some say 7.4v boosted 17.5 TC is too fast, and that's possibly true. I would contend that 3.7v 17.5 spec 12th scale is about as fun as watching grass grow, and my home track is only 63'x33'.
IMO, the best solution is to leave BOOSTED 17.5 as the "stock" or "Super-Stock" etc. class for TC and 12th scale. The existing equipment can still be utilized by the racers who'll continue to run these classes.
Now to make racing more attractive to the NEW racer: Institute a NEW 21.5 ZERO speedo AND motor timing class. Require NEW non-updatable speedos and NEW 21.5 motors for this class. The motors should be sealed, as this would prevent the use of tuning rotors,ceramic bearings, or any shady internal mods. I would also implement a max C-rating, and capacity rule to limit the amount of overall power available, in the hope of curbing the "gear it to meltdown" syndrome.
Note that NEW equipment is only necessary in the NEW class. If there are racers that want to step down to the NEW class, they can purchase the NEW equipment, which they would have to do anyway if they supported the current proposal by ROAR. The racers who choose to continue running the 17.5 boosted class (which I believe is the majority), could continue on, business as usual.
Under my proposal, a new class for more casual, and brand new racers has been introduced without alienating the existing racer base.
Just a thought.
21.5 no boost - amature, but call it novice and only true novice will sign up
17.5 no boost, stock
17.5 or 13.5 boosted, pro stock, which 80 % of the guys showing up at nationals should run anyway
MOD.
roar to spec a esc for novice and stock, take bids from the factorys to see who gets to make it. OR charge 100 entry and buy in bulk from hobbywing or speedpassion and have handout escs.
ok, OK, done. lock the thread now
17.5 no boost, stock
17.5 or 13.5 boosted, pro stock, which 80 % of the guys showing up at nationals should run anyway
MOD.
roar to spec a esc for novice and stock, take bids from the factorys to see who gets to make it. OR charge 100 entry and buy in bulk from hobbywing or speedpassion and have handout escs.
ok, OK, done. lock the thread now
Bottom line is even though Myself and Andrew are the only ones posting other EXCOM members are reading this and taking it in. On behalf of ROAR and myself as a racer I want to THANK everyone for keeping this civil, constructive and productive to help us come up with some great input from the Racers side (pro to beginner both).
EA
01-13-2011, 05:44 AM
#302
Just a reminder, when talking about slowing down n00bs, well everyone needs to remember that they never WANT to buy slow equipment! Maybe 10% of people getting into the hobby understand that they need to start out slow, most start out with a mamba 7000kv motor, only after they break $200 in parts do they start thinking that they should slow it down.
One way I could see that changing it is get some manufactures onboard to make a truly raceable spec car, we all know and have discussed that the onroad world needs a slash equivalent, HPI was almost there, but put in the wrong power plant to appease the RTR basher crowd. I think if someone walked into a hobby shop and could buy a ready to race car, they would be less inclined to buy overpowered gear.
I'll have to throw in a 0,0 timing 21.5 setup, there is such a thing as TOO slow
One way I could see that changing it is get some manufactures onboard to make a truly raceable spec car, we all know and have discussed that the onroad world needs a slash equivalent, HPI was almost there, but put in the wrong power plant to appease the RTR basher crowd. I think if someone walked into a hobby shop and could buy a ready to race car, they would be less inclined to buy overpowered gear.
I'll have to throw in a 0,0 timing 21.5 setup, there is such a thing as TOO slow
01-13-2011, 05:56 AM
#303
+117.5 - No Boost (Stock, Armature, Spec)
13.5 - Boosted (Super Stock)
Mod
Keep our current speed controls.
Keep it simple. It already works.
01-13-2011, 06:51 AM
#305
What Yang posted? Ugh! I thought he was kidding when he said they don't listen to us smaller scale guys...
Anyways, glad it is being looked at. The biggest positive I see is that ROAR is finally listening to the crowds. Hopefully a better solution can come from this dialogue that will make more participants happy and make racing more fun!
01-13-2011, 07:00 AM
#306
AVS...for the record I am not in agreeance with banning current speedo's. The reason I am on here trying to get YOU the racers that make up ROAR's input to try and come up with a better solution to this.
Bottom line is even though Myself and Andrew are the only ones posting other EXCOM members are reading this and taking it in. On behalf of ROAR and myself as a racer I want to THANK everyone for keeping this civil, constructive and productive to help us come up with some great input from the Racers side (pro to beginner both).
EA
Bottom line is even though Myself and Andrew are the only ones posting other EXCOM members are reading this and taking it in. On behalf of ROAR and myself as a racer I want to THANK everyone for keeping this civil, constructive and productive to help us come up with some great input from the Racers side (pro to beginner both).
EA
thank you for your rational position.
01-13-2011, 07:15 AM
#308
What Yang posted? Ugh! I thought he was kidding when he said they don't listen to us smaller scale guys...
Anyways, glad it is being looked at. The biggest positive I see is that ROAR is finally listening to the crowds. Hopefully a better solution can come from this dialogue that will make more participants happy and make racing more fun!
Anyways, glad it is being looked at. The biggest positive I see is that ROAR is finally listening to the crowds. Hopefully a better solution can come from this dialogue that will make more participants happy and make racing more fun!
Sorry I over looked your post in the beginning. If you originally posted then Thank you as well for your suggestion as it was a good one with merit and deserves discussion.
EA
01-13-2011, 07:25 AM
#309
01-13-2011, 07:31 AM
#310
Why not set it up as Skills based classes, and then the Motor/Speedo, can be adjusted within the classes for specific tracks and circumstances. Setup general guidelines for the club to follow.
Sportsman -
Expert -
Pro -
IMHO - make them all 17.5 - so jumping from class to class should not cost the racer anything.
17.5 no timing for Sportsman
17.5 timing advance for the other two.
Sportsman -
Expert -
Pro -
IMHO - make them all 17.5 - so jumping from class to class should not cost the racer anything.
17.5 no timing for Sportsman
17.5 timing advance for the other two.
Last edited by TimPotter; 01-13-2011 at 07:50 AM.
01-13-2011, 07:45 AM
#311
I would like to provide some input...not all classes are created equally for all kinds of racing, but we can get close I think:
Here is what I would do if I was running ROAR with regard to classes:
Electric On-road and off-road (includes 2wd short course and 4wd buggies)
17.5 no timing for stock
13.5 open speed control for pro/super stock
Mod open everything
There is no need to have to be more complicated then this...this is enough difference between each of these motors when the right people are in the right classes you see the separation.
Trying to get people to actually go slower and run the right correct classes is almost impossible. Everyone in RC thinks they are best driver in the world. So instead of trying to control people with motors and speed controls lets allow them to fail week in and week out.
Some tracks want people to go to fast so that they can sell more parts; some people actually care about the Hobby and sport of R/C.
After attending quite a few races and racing for a while I know that people want to have access to more then one class when they spend thousands of dollars on travel and equipment. The stock and mod model worked years ago, but things have changed as the industry has changed as well. As much as the two class game might simplify the model, it also will cut out a lot of people. Most people belong in stock, but race Super stock or mod. Pro stock is a nice transition from stock speeds to mod speeds.
In a perfect world people would start in Stock and learn how to control their vehicles. Then move up to Pro/Super Stock, and then to mod. The nice thing about Super stock is the the fast guys in mod and the fast guys in stock have a class where they can run together. IIC 2010 was a great example of this. The top stock drivers who also ran super stock got to drive against some of the best mod drivers in the world and it was because of Super stock. Having a mutual class really helps people get to the next level... Moving from stock no timing to mod has a very, very steep learning curve that will drive most people out of RC.
Last thought...there should not be a novice class at a national level events. Novice is for local tracks to help newer drivers get better.
Just my thoughts...
Here is what I would do if I was running ROAR with regard to classes:
Electric On-road and off-road (includes 2wd short course and 4wd buggies)
17.5 no timing for stock
13.5 open speed control for pro/super stock
Mod open everything
There is no need to have to be more complicated then this...this is enough difference between each of these motors when the right people are in the right classes you see the separation.
Trying to get people to actually go slower and run the right correct classes is almost impossible. Everyone in RC thinks they are best driver in the world. So instead of trying to control people with motors and speed controls lets allow them to fail week in and week out.
Some tracks want people to go to fast so that they can sell more parts; some people actually care about the Hobby and sport of R/C.
After attending quite a few races and racing for a while I know that people want to have access to more then one class when they spend thousands of dollars on travel and equipment. The stock and mod model worked years ago, but things have changed as the industry has changed as well. As much as the two class game might simplify the model, it also will cut out a lot of people. Most people belong in stock, but race Super stock or mod. Pro stock is a nice transition from stock speeds to mod speeds.
In a perfect world people would start in Stock and learn how to control their vehicles. Then move up to Pro/Super Stock, and then to mod. The nice thing about Super stock is the the fast guys in mod and the fast guys in stock have a class where they can run together. IIC 2010 was a great example of this. The top stock drivers who also ran super stock got to drive against some of the best mod drivers in the world and it was because of Super stock. Having a mutual class really helps people get to the next level... Moving from stock no timing to mod has a very, very steep learning curve that will drive most people out of RC.
Last thought...there should not be a novice class at a national level events. Novice is for local tracks to help newer drivers get better.
Just my thoughts...
01-13-2011, 07:53 AM
#313
I think ROAR should look at the classes run by IIC and the Snowbirds.
Amatuer : 21.5 Non-Boosted - Handout motor/Esc
Stock: 17.5 Non-Boosted
Super Stk: 17.5 Boosted
Mod
It seemed to work really well at IIC and if we wait a few weeks we'll know how it works in Florida.
Regards,
Carter
Amatuer : 21.5 Non-Boosted - Handout motor/Esc
Stock: 17.5 Non-Boosted
Super Stk: 17.5 Boosted
Mod
It seemed to work really well at IIC and if we wait a few weeks we'll know how it works in Florida.
Regards,
Carter
01-13-2011, 08:03 AM
#314
I think ROAR should look at the classes run by IIC and the Snowbirds.
Amatuer : 21.5 Non-Boosted - Handout motor/Esc
Stock: 17.5 Non-Boosted
Super Stk: 17.5 Boosted
Mod
It seemed to work really well at IIC and if we wait a few weeks we'll know how it works in Florida.
Regards,
Carter
Amatuer : 21.5 Non-Boosted - Handout motor/Esc
Stock: 17.5 Non-Boosted
Super Stk: 17.5 Boosted
Mod
It seemed to work really well at IIC and if we wait a few weeks we'll know how it works in Florida.
Regards,
Carter
17.5 spec
13.5 boosted
and mod
my point is ROAR should put rules around all these classes and allow venues to pick the classes that compete.
01-13-2011, 08:15 AM
#315
I disagree with this. I think there should be at least a beginner class, in a major racing class, i.e. stock tc and not TA, at all "big" events - whatever you want to call it i.e. novice, sportsman, or whatever the name. It is hard for the new guy to go to an event where he is the slowest one there and get a chance to drive and learn when he is constantly trying to stay out of the way, especially if he is trying to drive and not mess up the faster guys. I have been this guy and have watched others struggle with it. Newer racers go to big events to advance themselves and learn from faster guys and broaden their racing experience. And it is a pain in the butt to do when you are constantly a back marker in part because you are slower and don't want to mess up someone else's run and because you are not that good yet. When the newer racer goes to a big race, they mostly need help in the pits with car setup etc., but they need a class to apply that at that race without constantly being concerned about the guy that is lapping them. If they see they should bump up then that is up to them and the race director.