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Old 01-07-2011, 10:10 PM   #16
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I think the classes are good. Our club has thrived around a very similar lineup. I wish they'd gone 25.5 instead of 21.5, but oh well. I guess I'll have to buy a $35 stator that will last for five years.

Can't wait.
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Old 01-07-2011, 10:11 PM   #17
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TOASTY!!!!!
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Old 01-07-2011, 10:28 PM   #18
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Default Dynamic Timing and Production Classes

Unfortunately guys, this has been coming for quite some time. I think it sucks too! A) Because i liked the Dynamic Timing Scene, B) Because ROAR changes the rules far, far to frequently! I've been arguing these points for about 8 months now and not much progress. I have noticed that alot of bigger regional races are throwing in the 17.5 OPEN 1/12th in spite of ROAR's latest train wreck.

Here is a letter that was sent out to several industry manufacturers and all of the ROAR Officers and Directors on the subject a couple of months back. I have heard back with positive support from manufacturers and not a single response from anyone at ROAR? Surprise? I am a ROAR member by the way, I think they work for US, don't they?

I haven't been bashed for a while, so here it is, I always expect it to be entertaining in the least.


For whatever it's worth here are a few goals or ideas for carpet racing as a whole, which I believe have a lot of merit and support from the average perennial racers. RCTech tends to draw out the vocal minority. Unfortunately, our sanctioning body seems to quickly assimilate a lot of these gripes without fully exploring the ramifications to the existing membership/manufacturers. Currently, too many of our class/technology issues are being addressed, each in its' own vacuum. There is no "integration" of costs, parts, common sense, from the perspective of the average club level racer. We are the end-user, membership and customer.

Something like the setup below would allow a common sense approach to integrating equipment, rules, technology, and classes to meet "ALL" types of carpet racers interests. We need to do a better job of feeding other classes by making it cheaper to add or move between classes:
1) VTA - 2S / 25.5 - "Cheap" controller or "Programmable" in "Spec" mode
2)1/12th Production Class - Same gear as VTA.
3)1/12th Open Stock - 1S / 17.5 - "Programmable" ESC
4)1/12th Open Super Stock -1S/13.5-"Programmable" ESC
5)WGT - Same as 1/12th Open Super Stock
6)Mod 1/12th - 1S any motor/ESC
7)Stock Sedan - Same as #3 with 2S
8)Mod Sedan - Same as #6 with 2S

If you wanted to establish a testing method for the programmable ESC, racers could use it (a programmable ESC) as they progress. Same with motors, batteries, etc. Right now we're all over the board, very frustrating time as a racer - that's why numbers are dropping!

VTA & 1/12th Production Class

Use the concept of introducing a couple of PRODUCTION classes as we use to do back years ago in off-road? (I've been at this about 20 years). The USVTA could be left as is (25.5 BL, 2S, Non-Programmable ESC), then add PRODUCTION (Sportsman, whatever) 1/12th scale with exactly the same gear, the only change being a 1S LiPo. That gives new carpet racers and the vocal old schoolers two competitive classes to use all the same electronics. No need for a laptop or programming card. Other manufacturers would have to be allowed into these specifications obviously. Not offering all interested manufacturers a chance to meet the specifications is not OK. If the sanctioning body does not have the technical expertise to provide this evaluation they should either add the requisite personnel and equipment to do so or get out of authoring the spec. class.

All Stock, Super Stock, WGT

Use "OPEN" Programmable ESC's with 17.5BL and 13.5BL respectively. This lets racers use the same gear wherever they migrate season to season.

Modified Classes

Open motor, Programmable ESC.


Consider as one example, the truth about the costs of running in the 1/12th Stock class last year compared with this year. I tried to have this discussion with Steve Pond on one of the forums and was not greeted with any interest in considering the perspective of the average club racer that may travel a time or two within their region. Steve was/is absolutely convinced that the car this type of racer is wheeling (under OPEN ESC) is a $2000 endeavor and that changing to SPEC MODE was going to make a huge change. This is false, by a large margin and has had the exact opposite effect. Even if you start from complete scratch and buy everything brand new (including radio) off Stormer's website, you can run in this class for $800. Most start-from-scratch newcomers would get in with a significant amount of used gear and may only need $400-$500. They would have the same start-up cost no matter what class or set of rules you choose. Saving them $60 on a Spec Mode level ESC is a non-factor. The two main points of how the rules effect the "man on the street" are listed below.

1) I used (2) two 17.5BL motors for the duration of two seasons under the OPEN ESC rules. This is because the ability of the racer to learn the proper use of dynamic timing provides more benefit than having an army of motors like we did in the brushed days. All the manufacturers had very adequate user profiles for everyone, without necessity for a laptop or notebook. I used an old worthless laptop from my closet that would net about $110 on ebay. This allowed me to do more tinkering, which is part of the enjoyment of R/C. For a newcomer into this class, the only item of necessity the "SPEC MODE" has actually changed is that they have been "saved" $60 off the price of the dominant ESC under the OPEN rules. Everything else in the car is the same and a necessity. Any illusion outside of that cost difference is just that, an illusion.

2) What happens under this illusion for the perennial racer? Now we go back to the brushed days approach. For all of us that have the potential to put together a good drive outside of our club track, we have to take on an exponential cost increase to maintain our level of competitiveness (and remember, we are the dues paying membership). We arm ($$$) ourselves with dyno systems, rotor checkers, more software and go through 25 motors at a time defining the best performers. We keep several of those and sell the rest at a loss of $15 or $20 each. The prized "New" racer sees all this and begins to follow along. I have spent more money in the last 2 months than I have in the last 4 years combined. How long does the "New" racer hold on to the illusion of their $60 savings they were given at the expense of everyone else? Not long and in the end they will unfortunately spend much more than they would have otherwise.

The truth, really, is that integrating classes and technology will be the only path toward Cost Control. Promoting and helping the membership and newcomers transition into Dynamic Timing while providing a couple of Production Classes would be exponentially less expensive. It does require some effort however, which must have seemed to daunting. From the racers perspective it appears that it was just much easier to "RollBack" time, change the rules and leave the entire existing membership holding the bag along with all the manufacturers that developed products to compete in that format. Until the governing body can assimilate a complete package they will continue to stomp on everyone's toes. That fact is the concise reason overall turn-out has gone flat.

Thanks to each of you for reading/considering any of these thoughts! You have an uphill battle no matter which way you turn. I love this hobby and have been an avid participant for a long time. There are a lot of us, we are out here and we do care about how this turns out.

Regards,
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Old 01-07-2011, 10:30 PM   #19
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yea ain't that a bitch,,, having to buy one motor a year


again, just messing
I still have two each very used 17.5 and 13.5 Duo 1 motors (came from EA in 2008-9) that I have never been able to improve upon...LOL
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Old 01-07-2011, 10:55 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by VRacing View Post
Unfortunately guys, this has been coming for quite some time. I think it sucks too! A) Because i liked the Dynamic Timing Scene, B) Because ROAR changes the rules far, far to frequently! I've been arguing these points for about 8 months now and not much progress. I have noticed that alot of bigger regional races are throwing in the 17.5 OPEN 1/12th in spite of ROAR's latest train wreck.

Here is a letter that was sent out to several industry manufacturers and all of the ROAR Officers and Directors on the subject a couple of months back. I have heard back with positive support from manufacturers and not a single response from anyone at ROAR? Surprise? I am a ROAR member by the way, I think they work for US, don't they?

I haven't been bashed for a while, so here it is, I always expect it to be entertaining in the least.


For whatever it's worth here are a few goals or ideas for carpet racing as a whole, which I believe have a lot of merit and support from the average perennial racers. RCTech tends to draw out the vocal minority. Unfortunately, our sanctioning body seems to quickly assimilate a lot of these gripes without fully exploring the ramifications to the existing membership/manufacturers. Currently, too many of our class/technology issues are being addressed, each in its' own vacuum. There is no "integration" of costs, parts, common sense, from the perspective of the average club level racer. We are the end-user, membership and customer.

Something like the setup below would allow a common sense approach to integrating equipment, rules, technology, and classes to meet "ALL" types of carpet racers interests. We need to do a better job of feeding other classes by making it cheaper to add or move between classes:
1) VTA - 2S / 25.5 - "Cheap" controller or "Programmable" in "Spec" mode
2)1/12th Production Class - Same gear as VTA.
3)1/12th Open Stock - 1S / 17.5 - "Programmable" ESC
4)1/12th Open Super Stock -1S/13.5-"Programmable" ESC
5)WGT - Same as 1/12th Open Super Stock
6)Mod 1/12th - 1S any motor/ESC
7)Stock Sedan - Same as #3 with 2S
8)Mod Sedan - Same as #6 with 2S

If you wanted to establish a testing method for the programmable ESC, racers could use it (a programmable ESC) as they progress. Same with motors, batteries, etc. Right now we're all over the board, very frustrating time as a racer - that's why numbers are dropping!

VTA & 1/12th Production Class

Use the concept of introducing a couple of PRODUCTION classes as we use to do back years ago in off-road? (I've been at this about 20 years). The USVTA could be left as is (25.5 BL, 2S, Non-Programmable ESC), then add PRODUCTION (Sportsman, whatever) 1/12th scale with exactly the same gear, the only change being a 1S LiPo. That gives new carpet racers and the vocal old schoolers two competitive classes to use all the same electronics. No need for a laptop or programming card. Other manufacturers would have to be allowed into these specifications obviously. Not offering all interested manufacturers a chance to meet the specifications is not OK. If the sanctioning body does not have the technical expertise to provide this evaluation they should either add the requisite personnel and equipment to do so or get out of authoring the spec. class.

All Stock, Super Stock, WGT

Use "OPEN" Programmable ESC's with 17.5BL and 13.5BL respectively. This lets racers use the same gear wherever they migrate season to season.

Modified Classes

Open motor, Programmable ESC.


Consider as one example, the truth about the costs of running in the 1/12th Stock class last year compared with this year. I tried to have this discussion with Steve Pond on one of the forums and was not greeted with any interest in considering the perspective of the average club racer that may travel a time or two within their region. Steve was/is absolutely convinced that the car this type of racer is wheeling (under OPEN ESC) is a $2000 endeavor and that changing to SPEC MODE was going to make a huge change. This is false, by a large margin and has had the exact opposite effect. Even if you start from complete scratch and buy everything brand new (including radio) off Stormer's website, you can run in this class for $800. Most start-from-scratch newcomers would get in with a significant amount of used gear and may only need $400-$500. They would have the same start-up cost no matter what class or set of rules you choose. Saving them $60 on a Spec Mode level ESC is a non-factor. The two main points of how the rules effect the "man on the street" are listed below.

1) I used (2) two 17.5BL motors for the duration of two seasons under the OPEN ESC rules. This is because the ability of the racer to learn the proper use of dynamic timing provides more benefit than having an army of motors like we did in the brushed days. All the manufacturers had very adequate user profiles for everyone, without necessity for a laptop or notebook. I used an old worthless laptop from my closet that would net about $110 on ebay. This allowed me to do more tinkering, which is part of the enjoyment of R/C. For a newcomer into this class, the only item of necessity the "SPEC MODE" has actually changed is that they have been "saved" $60 off the price of the dominant ESC under the OPEN rules. Everything else in the car is the same and a necessity. Any illusion outside of that cost difference is just that, an illusion.

2) What happens under this illusion for the perennial racer? Now we go back to the brushed days approach. For all of us that have the potential to put together a good drive outside of our club track, we have to take on an exponential cost increase to maintain our level of competitiveness (and remember, we are the dues paying membership). We arm ($$$) ourselves with dyno systems, rotor checkers, more software and go through 25 motors at a time defining the best performers. We keep several of those and sell the rest at a loss of $15 or $20 each. The prized "New" racer sees all this and begins to follow along. I have spent more money in the last 2 months than I have in the last 4 years combined. How long does the "New" racer hold on to the illusion of their $60 savings they were given at the expense of everyone else? Not long and in the end they will unfortunately spend much more than they would have otherwise.

The truth, really, is that integrating classes and technology will be the only path toward Cost Control. Promoting and helping the membership and newcomers transition into Dynamic Timing while providing a couple of Production Classes would be exponentially less expensive. It does require some effort however, which must have seemed to daunting. From the racers perspective it appears that it was just much easier to "RollBack" time, change the rules and leave the entire existing membership holding the bag along with all the manufacturers that developed products to compete in that format. Until the governing body can assimilate a complete package they will continue to stomp on everyone's toes. That fact is the concise reason overall turn-out has gone flat.

Thanks to each of you for reading/considering any of these thoughts! You have an uphill battle no matter which way you turn. I love this hobby and have been an avid participant for a long time. There are a lot of us, we are out here and we do care about how this turns out.

Regards,
what your suggesting is that we all conform to what you think is best. no different then any other post on this forum, I ask, and I hope you will reply,


what are the numbers for your track with the above classes. give us the numbers from 2005 thru today. has it been growth or just steady. up one year and down the next.

you know the roar rules actually only apply to roar events so what each club runs under the roar banner makes no difference. you can't tell me because people don't like roar rules for national events that your club attendance is down..

and as we all know, it really didn't matter what classes are run, or what rules are put in place. someone would complain because it doesn't line up with thier local program.

oh and btw, para 2. non sense, if YOU chose to do that then knock yourself out, don't put that on roar. I've been to Reedy, Paved Nats, IIC. I don't buy 60 motors to find a good one, I bring the one I have been running all year and so do 99.8 percent of all the racers. ok maybe not that high
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Old 01-07-2011, 11:24 PM   #21
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The barrier to entry on ROAR's forum is too high. Nobody will ever use it. Ever. If you don't talk about it here, you may as well send out surveys on stone tablets via snail mail, you'll get more feedback that way. I understand what they were trying to do, but it's not going to work. You can listen to me now, or later, but I'm right. Sorry it didn't work out.

As far as the classes go, man, I dunno. I think IIC and Snowbirds has the classes right, at least for touring car. Only difference is I'd consider making amateur 21.5 unboosted.

Hopefully EA's presence will help guide ROAR in the right direction.
Just stop yourself. Every time there is a ROAR thread on here, 400 NON MEMBERS show up and piss all over everything and the thread goes nowhere.

Maybe if you want to participate, you should take it upon yourself to go to the ROAR forum. Otherwise, you will not be heard.
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Old 01-07-2011, 11:30 PM   #22
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what your suggesting is that we all conform to what you think is best. no different then any other post on this forum, I ask, and I hope you will reply,
Actually no, never said anything about "we should all conform to what Vracing thinks is best" read it again. More of the idea that some form of integration with Production Classes and Dynamic Timing Classes would allow racers to move around at minimal cost. The cats' out of the bag with Tekin, Mamba, LRP, Black Diamond, KoPro, Novak, etc. on dynamic timing. Doens't make common sense for all the customers and manufacturers to flush those dollars and rollback time? The Class Structre Part of the letter is rhetorical.

what are the numbers for your track with the above classes. give us the numbers from 2005 thru today. has it been growth or just steady. up one year and down the next.Rhetorical Structre

you know the roar rules actually only apply to roar events so what each club runs under the roar banner makes no difference. you can't tell me because people don't like roar rules for national events that your club attendance is down.. Sure can. Club level drivers had barely been weened off the round-cell brushed cars by the time they did this to us. Drivers invest in Dynamic Timing pieces and knowledge, then, wham, we all get to run Mini-Z "Spec Mode" classes. People get pissed with the money and time they just wasted and find something else to do. Save you the post - this is where you tell me if I don't like it, find something else to do. There, you feel better.

and as we all know, it really didn't matter what classes are run, or what rules are put in place. someone would complain because it doesn't line up with thier local program.Spot on! Consistency and Integration, that was the point. They change the rules so often, most local clubs look like a Hyena crossed with a Zebra. Round-cells with brushed, round with BL, Dynamic Tekin 17.5 with GTB 13.5, GTB with Tekin dressed like GTB's, dogs & cats living together - it's a free-for-all? Fun Stuff!

oh and btw, para 2. non sense, if YOU chose to do that then knock yourself out, don't put that on roar. I've been to Reedy, Paved Nats, IIC. I don't buy 60 motors to find a good one, I bring the one I have been running all year and so do 99.8 percent of all the racers. ok maybe not that high

It is on ROAR, that's the playing field. If you're not doing it you'll get passed by someone that is! EA is over on other threads talking about all the bad rotors he finds and all the good motors he sends out with his stickers on them? Either it's crap and he's selling $15 "Team" stickers or you can get the best motors possible by doing it yourself. I'll leave that on you?
Thanks
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Old 01-07-2011, 11:36 PM   #23
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It is on ROAR, that's the playing field. If you're not doing it you'll get passed by someone that is! EA is over on other threads talking about all the bad rotors he finds and all the good motors he sends out with his stickers on them? Either it's crap and he's selling $15 "Team" stickers or you can get the best motors possible by doing it yourself. I'll leave that on you?

Actually if you check the prices I sell motors cheaper (70.00) than you can buy them anywhere else and at least they are dyno'd, checked out and will work out of the package. I have a pile of rotors from the first batch that were junk. Since then I have not seen a bad one. If there are any that do not dyno very well I keep those for myself to club race on and put in my 2 kids SCT trucks. maybe you should stop reading half of what I write and putting words into other peoples mouths as it seems that you are very good at that here lately.

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Old 01-08-2011, 12:06 AM   #24
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Just stop yourself. Every time there is a ROAR thread on here, 400 NON MEMBERS show up and piss all over everything and the thread goes nowhere.

Maybe if you want to participate, you should take it upon yourself to go to the ROAR forum. Otherwise, you will not be heard.
What, you're a martyr now because of your involvement with VTA?

If they want feedback, they can get it where we're free to speak our minds, not their walled garden where they try to intimidate people into compliance by requiring real names, and have the option to moderate opinions they don't agree with. Hiding from people that don't always say nice things won't fix anything.
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Old 01-08-2011, 12:34 AM   #25
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man.. this thread sums up everything wrong with onroad
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Old 01-08-2011, 12:35 AM   #26
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Thanks
well now that you were kinda enough to add to the quote that I can't requote, just let me say, bullcrap.

first EA is a motor guy, he sells, motors, he is not (ok I'm guessing) buying 60 motors for himself to find a good one and sell the rest at a discount. (oh I'm sure once in while he'll get a WTF motor and keep it for himself but so what. doesn't mean I have to to keep up and I don't. like i said, went to nats, reedy and iic all with the same motor and had a blast thank you very much. btw, you know if your run mod then all that is meaningless anyway right? of course you do.

'Rhetorical Structre'

I don't know what that means, other then you won't answer the question with actual numbers which tells me everything i need to know about your program and ideas.

fact is your numbers are down and your chosing to blame roar and the classes being run at this race for that. BS how hard is it to turn the timing off and go to a big race, oh but i spent all this time and money figuring out the timing, no way I'm gonna turn the timing off, fine don't, stay home and complain. I have no problem turning the timing off, that way I know when I get my ass handed to me, its because the other guys were better and faster, not because they had something figured out that I didn't, I THINK IT LEVELS THE PLAYING FIELD AND MAKES RACING BETTER.

BOTTOM LINE. END OF STORY.
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Old 01-08-2011, 12:36 AM   #27
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What, you're a martyr now because of your involvement with VTA?

If they want feedback, they can get it where we're free to speak our minds, not their walled garden where they try to intimidate people into compliance by requiring real names, and have the option to moderate opinions they don't agree with. Hiding from people that don't always say nice things won't fix anything.
Oh please.

It isn't hiding it's avoiding " ROAR SUXORS!!! WHY DON"T YOU JUST DO WHAT I WANT ROAR SUCKS AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"

If you want real input use your name.

It's hard to know when you're trolling and when you're serious anyway
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Old 01-08-2011, 12:46 AM   #28
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At no time was I told I had to use my real name for a screen name, and thats not even true, when i look at members I see local guys using thier rctech screen name, I have no issue signing up on the roar site and using my real name if thats what it takes to read and post over there. but that doesn't mean I can't come on this site and give my opinions to and about roar, which btw are usually pretty good, in my world, roar makes rules, my tracks picks and choses which ones to follow depending on whats best for thier track, and maybe even makes up rules that aren't roar rules. which is fine, I pick a class with a set of rules i like, i bitch about the class i don't like, I get told to shut up and race I say f u, show up have fun, for nationals the same thing, if i don't like the rules I don't go, I'm old, I want a masters class, theres not going to be a masters class, so i run mod,( except for this carpet nats its 17.5 and 21.5 and its gonna be a blast, a true test of driving skill and car prep) I suck at it, I have fun, I hang out and meet some new people. I go home and go back to work and tell everyone I had a great time. thats my story and I'm sticking to it. just don't tell me if i have a opinion i need to post it on just one web site.
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Old 01-08-2011, 12:58 AM   #29
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Oh please.

It isn't hiding it's avoiding " ROAR SUXORS!!! WHY DON"T YOU JUST DO WHAT I WANT ROAR SUCKS AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"

If you want real input use your name.
I get sick of hearing the opinions of the unwashed masses in our little corner of the R/C world myself. It would be nice if I could make people pay a fee before they're allowed to express them, it would probably keep the riffraff out. And probably most of the good input, too. But hey, at least what does get through will be all fluffy bunnies and baby squirrels, right?

Can I use my porn star name? 'Cause that's how much I actually care. Truly, I should have just ignored this thread from the beginning like I planned to. Jeff totally baited us. Now the "this is what's wrong with on-road" guy popped out from under his rock. Any bets on how long until Rick stops in to tell us "we should all run mod?" What about the "off-road comparison" guy, is he busy gluing more tires? Is the "brushless was supposed to be easier" guy in the house? I see "wall of text" guy is out in force. He always makes my finger tired from scroll wheel overuse.
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Old 01-08-2011, 01:04 AM   #30
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@ Syndrome - that was awesome!! I can think of a few more guys!!

....and for Ritchie- GO TO BED ALREADY!!!!!
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