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Old 08-01-2011, 04:17 PM   #151
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thats just it, its not that complex!! and ZERO maintenence, i havent broken or changed anything since the beginning, no ball dif drama, no tweak nothing. i have had more fun with it than any of my other F1 cars. and you can drive the piss out of it! very aggressive, no baby fingers!
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Old 08-01-2011, 04:31 PM   #152
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Agreed, a "true scale" IRS F1 car does not need to be complex like that 1/5 car that RedBull showed. It also wouldn't be anywhere near as expensive as the 1/5 cars which go from $1500 to over $2000. It would likely be in the $300-390 range, tops! Still less expensive than a high end 4wd touring car. Mantis has proven that a IRS F1 car can be simple and easy to tune.

Having said that, I am looking forward to the new 3 Racing IRS car; however I am disappointed that it has a plastic chassis. Hopefully 3 Racing will have a carbon fiber chassis available as an upgrade. Also, it's too bad that it won't except Tamiya F1 bodies, the best in the business.
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Old 08-01-2011, 05:56 PM   #153
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thats just it, its not that complex!! and ZERO maintenence, i havent broken or changed anything since the beginning, no ball dif drama, no tweak nothing. i have had more fun with it than any of my other F1 cars. and you can drive the piss out of it! very aggressive, no baby fingers!
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Agreed, a "true scale" IRS F1 car does not need to be complex like that 1/5 car that RedBull showed. It also wouldn't be anywhere near as expensive as the 1/5 cars which go from $1500 to over $2000. It would likely be in the $300-390 range, tops! Still less expensive than a high end 4wd touring car. Mantis has proven that a IRS F1 car can be simple and easy to tune.

Having said that, I am looking forward to the new 3 Racing IRS car; however I am disappointed that it has a plastic chassis. Hopefully 3 Racing will have a carbon fiber chassis available as an upgrade. Also, it's too bad that it won't except Tamiya F1 bodies, the best in the business.
What is this "ball dif drama, no tweak nothing" you speak of.
I have no tweak screws on my F-103, and the diff gets maintenance once a year, maybe

I'm sure there are some racers that wouldn't mind having a hi-end, fully suspended, sedan like version of an F1 car.

But when you can run a low cost, simple, perhaps "dated design" F1, as you say.
Why not stick to that program.
What is the point in making it more expensive than it needs to be ?

Are we not hurting enough yet, from all the hi-end stuff out there ?
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Old 08-01-2011, 06:11 PM   #154
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What is the point in making it more expensive than it needs to be ?

Are we not hurting enough yet, from all the hi-end stuff out there ?
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:02 PM   #155
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:19 PM   #156
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Mantis, I think we are "beating a dead horse" here. The 3 guys who put up the last 3 posts have made it quite clear that they and others like them are happy with the "status quo" of rc F1 design, and want nothing changed. So be it. Once again we have been "shouted down". Might as well let it go; it's never going to change, unfortunately.
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:35 PM   #157
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I don't quite understand the "sedan-like F1 car" analogy; we're not even talking about a fully suspended F1 car. The existing kingpin front ends are fine, especially the F109, which has some flex (along with the stock chassis) which, on outdoor asphalt, is 50% of the suspension alone.

Having said that, rear grip is where it's at. Yes, you'll get caster/camber changes with compression and rebound as well as the introduction of high side loads. But a solid chassis helps isolate the rear suspension and makes possible real suspension tuning as opposed to center shocks, tweak springs, a hinged chassis which makes no sense on its face. If one were to design a car to specifically do what a pan car does, you'd end up with a pan car. However, if you were tasked with designing an F1 car, you'd go straight to an IRS.

If there's a cost effective way to produce an IRS 1/10 F1 car, I think people would be very interested. Organised, outdoor asphalt F1 racing completely independent of any existing sanctioning body could take off. Maybe even start a new class.

I'm just saying. If I want to go as fast as I can around an indoor carpet track, I'll bring my 12R5. This is something different, and would be (and should be) supported by folks who actually like and follow real F1 racing. Those that are simply overly immersed in pan car racing should be allowed and encouraged to continue racing pan cars.

Finally, Marcus, let's assume that the only thing missing from current F1 cars is an IRS. Well, methinks the debate shall rage on. Front brakes, however, that's a whole different story. I would hurt strangers for front brakes! That would complete the characteristics of a high performance 2WD car. I've thought abouty running a u-jointed axle between the front wheels, no drive, ball-raced with a center ball/gear diff with a rotor attached, mechanically acted upon by a servo. The big challenge would be to ensure both front wheels see equal or very close to equal braking force to avoid pulling to one side or the other. If you have an idea for front brakes, pursue it! I'll even help w/ R&D $$.
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:50 PM   #158
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+1, Bob

Well said!!
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:10 PM   #159
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I don't think you guys understand why the opinion of a lot of people is to leave things alone. There is nothing wrong with what you want to do. You can even be like Mantisworx and build your own car. Hell, I'll probably even buy a 3Racing car because it is awesome looking.

That being said, if you actually want people to RACE the cars instead of look at them or just run them at the track, you want to go with the momentum. Tamiya builds beautifully detailed scale rc cars. They are also a giant corporation in terms of the hobby. Their decision was to stick with the straight axle formula when they brought out a new F1 car.

Why? The F201 was pretty much a flop. It looked awesome with full suspension, and even the non scale 4wd which was supposed to make it easier to drive than a pan style car didn't help.

This also has nothing to do with ROAR or anyone else's rules. The last time there was a ROAR F1 race was at the carpet nats in 1998 - I was there. The only rules that really have mattered for the last 10+ years have been Tamiya's TCS rules, and even with their backing, the F201 really wasn't a huge deal except for the die hards.

Right now, F1 has actually built up some momentum, enough that the IIC race in Vegas is going to have a class of 20 cars minimum. That has taken a few years since the F103RM reappeared and got the ball rolling again. I don't know how introducing a more complicated car will enhance the racing besides making it harder and more expensive. I know the motivation is to that everyone here has a sincere interest in F1. Maybe you would like to race "proper race cars" or a car with IRS because that's what the real cars have. The reality is that adding complexity to an already niche class does not help it draw participants.








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Old 08-01-2011, 08:19 PM   #160
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^^I don't know what you mean, what's so complicated about that!!! Although the front braking system is genus, I'll give him that. I'll stick to the 103
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:41 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Bob Kelly View Post
I don't quite understand the "sedan-like F1 car" analogy; we're not even talking about a fully suspended F1 car. The existing kingpin front ends are fine, especially the F109, which has some flex (along with the stock chassis) which, on outdoor asphalt, is 50% of the suspension alone.

Having said that, rear grip is where it's at. Yes, you'll get caster/camber changes with compression and rebound as well as the introduction of high side loads. But a solid chassis helps isolate the rear suspension and makes possible real suspension tuning as opposed to center shocks, tweak springs, a hinged chassis which makes no sense on its face. If one were to design a car to specifically do what a pan car does, you'd end up with a pan car. However, if you were tasked with designing an F1 car, you'd go straight to an IRS.

If there's a cost effective way to produce an IRS 1/10 F1 car, I think people would be very interested. Organised, outdoor asphalt F1 racing completely independent of any existing sanctioning body could take off. Maybe even start a new class.

I'm just saying. If I want to go as fast as I can around an indoor carpet track, I'll bring my 12R5. This is something different, and would be (and should be) supported by folks who actually like and follow real F1 racing. Those that are simply overly immersed in pan car racing should be allowed and encouraged to continue racing pan cars.

Finally, Marcus, let's assume that the only thing missing from current F1 cars is an IRS. Well, methinks the debate shall rage on. Front brakes, however, that's a whole different story. I would hurt strangers for front brakes! That would complete the characteristics of a high performance 2WD car. I've thought abouty running a u-jointed axle between the front wheels, no drive, ball-raced with a center ball/gear diff with a rotor attached, mechanically acted upon by a servo. The big challenge would be to ensure both front wheels see equal or very close to equal braking force to avoid pulling to one side or the other. If you have an idea for front brakes, pursue it! I'll even help w/ R&D $$.

im working on the front brake thing, we have been racing Venom GPV motorcycles here lately and they having working dual front disc brakes(kit is 35.00!) and they are GREAT, got my wheels turning! the next two things for my car will be a link active front end(hate the 104 front end with a passion) and front disc brakes.
ROB has got more damn information than anyone i know and pictures to back it up!!

At any rate guys just like this has been discussed a million times it will go on forever i just wish some of you nay sayers could drive my car, i promise your opinion would change.
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:49 PM   #162
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+ 1

I don't think you guys understand why the opinion of a lot of people is to leave things alone. There is nothing wrong with what you want to do. You can even be like Mantisworx and build your own car. Hell, I'll probably even buy a 3Racing car because it is awesome looking.

That being said, if you actually want people to RACE the cars instead of look at them or just run them at the track, you want to go with the momentum. Tamiya builds beautifully detailed scale rc cars. They are also a giant corporation in terms of the hobby. Their decision was to stick with the straight axle formula when they brought out a new F1 car.

Why? The F201 was pretty much a flop. It looked awesome with full suspension, and even the non scale 4wd which was supposed to make it easier to drive than a pan style car didn't help.

This also has nothing to do with ROAR or anyone else's rules. The last time there was a ROAR F1 race was at the carpet nats in 1998 - I was there. The only rules that really have mattered for the last 10+ years have been Tamiya's TCS rules, and even with their backing, the F201 really wasn't a huge deal except for the die hards.

Right now, F1 has actually built up some momentum, enough that the IIC race in Vegas is going to have a class of 20 cars minimum. That has taken a few years since the F103RM reappeared and got the ball rolling again. I don't know how introducing a more complicated car will enhance the racing besides making it harder and more expensive. I know the motivation is to that everyone here has a sincere interest in F1. Maybe you would like to race "proper race cars" or a car with IRS because that's what the real cars have. The reality is that adding complexity to an already niche class does not help it draw participants.
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:53 PM   #163
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Prove your design on the track - good luck!
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Old 08-02-2011, 02:19 AM   #164
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The F201 was a flop mainly because it was 4wd...but also because it was overly complex and fragile. The gearbox on it was absolutely horrible and the original suspension arms would break if you looked at them funny. It took a great deal of money to build one that corrected most of the flaws in the system...I know...I did it. To build up a fully decked out F201 cost over $700 even if you bought the aftermarket parts and assembled it from there...even more if you started with the kit and then started replacing parts.
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Old 08-02-2011, 06:18 AM   #165
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i also have a 201, i think another issue was trying to run a SC motor in it. i use a 10.5 in mine and a spooled the front and the car is a beast. i havent broken any thing yet but i dont drive it much. i bet if brushless was around in those days thing may have been different.
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