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Old 07-16-2004, 03:01 PM   #1
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Default Marketing of GP3300 Batterys

I am a little confused about the marketing and sales of GP3300 batteries.

I guess unless you buy $100k a year you buy them from and American distributor ... www.gpdirectusa.com/

If a hobby shop orders batteries from GP Direct USA can they specify approximately what spec batteries they will get or do they just arrive randomly and the hobby shop or other resellers (like matchers pack assemblers) just test the individual cells and separate them by average voltage.
In other words could a retailer tell the US distributor of GP batteries they only want Batteries which would spec out over 1.16 and pay a premium for those batteries.

Can someone give me a rough idea of what the wholesale price of these cells is.

If in fact the distributor just sends you a random untested sample does anyone know the actual percentage of the various levels of cells retailers receive, i.e. what percentage are better than 1.16? 1.17?

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Am I correct that the commonly accepted standard is average voltage when discharged at 30 amps and that some people use the 20 amp number as a way of inflating their voltage numbers?
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Is there a way of actually testing these voltage numbers with Voltmeter and a discharger with a know amp draw? or does every one use a particular piece of equipment like Competition Electronics Brand Computerized Charger.
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I assume there is no practical way a private party could just buy like 60 batteries from a retailer and do their own testing and matching, or just assemble their own un matched packs. Could you actually buy a quantity of batteries that were not picked over or were someone else’s rejects?
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[I know this is probably an impossible to answer question] Are their any sources of GP3300 that are both cheap and reliable?
Is it unrelistic to think I could find 1.17 matched pack for like $35 including shipping?
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Old 07-16-2004, 03:07 PM   #2
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Default Re: Marketing of GP3300 Batterys

Quote:
Originally posted by imjonah
I guess unless you buy $100k a year you buy them from and American distributor ... www.gpdirectusa.com/


im sorry to interupt but I think this explains why matchers are dissing the new sanyo cells. would you really want your 50k + stock of battereis(if not more) to be outdated because of a newer higher capacity cell?
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Old 07-16-2004, 03:39 PM   #3
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I can answer some of the questions. Raw cells are raw cells. If you were to order direct you'd be getting the same cells matchers would be getting. I've seen cells at the Fukuyama facility that were barely good enough to run a lathe off of and I've seen a few one off cells that had astronomical voltage numbers. That's why from time to time a matcher may run into a bad batch of cels and run out of stock of their higher numbered cells. They are not tested by GP. Matchers have their own voltage enhancement process they put their cells through to get the higher numbers you see on the labels. Raw cells usually won't yeild those numbers witout being "zapped" and exercised. The information that is on the labels comes from the CE Turbomatchers that most matchers use as an industry standard. Matching cells is not a simple process that a individual should really try to get into in their garage. Matching is done in climate controlled environments to get the best and most consistant results. It would end up costing you a lot more money investing in a turbomatcher and zapping process than you can buy a good set of matched cells for.

The standard for discharging is 30 amps. Some use 20 amps and this inflates the voltage and run time.

If you're looking for a good price on unmatched cells, you can check out the Fukuyama website. They offer a Power Cube. These are cells that have gone through their "zapping process" but have not been run through the turbomatchers. Most of the cells that come in these cubes are in the 1.15-1.16 range. They make for good race packs for the intermediate racer and good cheap practice packs for the higher level racer. You may also want to check out the technical section on their website. There's some good info on there. You can use the link in my signature to get to their website.

As far as the matchers "Bashing" the 3600 cells. Data is Data. Matchers are going through cells constantly. If a new cell comes out that is better, everyone who's not matching them will be all over that. Because if all of a sudden one matcher starts matching them and they are better, they're screwed. There'd be no reason not to go with a better technology. But data is data. When you test the 3600's and get lower voltage and higher IR's than the current cells, there's no reason to go with the new ones.

Last edited by Jon Kerr; 07-16-2004 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 07-16-2004, 03:50 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by jkerr0043

As far as the matchers "Bashing" the 3600 cells. Data is Data. Matchers are going through cells constantly. If a new cell comes out that is better, they will be all over that. Because if all of a sudden one matcher starts matching them and they are better, they're screwed. There'd be no reason not to go with a better technology. But data is data. When you test the 3600's and get lower voltage and higher IR's than the current cells, there's no reason to go with the new ones.

im going to half to call B.S. on that............. so your saying if the new cells were matched to spec then they would jump on those and make there gp stock use less? No, its another marketing ploy to get rid of what they have so that the "second batch" of sanyo cells come out then they'll be legit and the gp stock will be getting lower and wont be as hard to push..........
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Old 07-16-2004, 04:00 PM   #5
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You're assuming they have thousands and thousands of cells sitting around. They don't. They go out the door as fast as they come in. Trust me. I've been to the packaging facilities. The people who do have that many cells laying around, companies like Trinity and Orion, are going to be matching the 3600's. If you want to talk about marketing ploys, the Sanyo 3600's are just that. The GP 3300's will take up to 3900 mah. When my 3300's start taking ONLY 3300, they become practice packs. GP could get away easily with labeling these same cells as 3800's if they wanted.
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Old 07-16-2004, 06:18 PM   #6
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Agreed, I think more "marketing hype" is being done by the battery manufacturer(Sanyo) than by anyone else. From what EVERYONE I've heard from has said, the 3600's barely have anymore capacity than their old 3300's had, & worse, their voltage & resistance is even worse than ever. In truth, that's somethig(particularly the resistance) that Sanyo has been struggling with since their very first NiMh cells, & it appears that they still haven't figured it out yet. And that is DEFINITELY where Gold Peak has everyone beat, they're simply building a better cell, excellent capacity, great voltage(which started out a tick lower than the others but has only gotten better & better with newer batches of them) & resistance that NONE of the others can match, & all at a price they can't beat. Facts are facts, stumper, the GP's are the better cell, simple as that...
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Old 07-17-2004, 04:46 AM   #7
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Very good explanation Jon. I think the GP is still doing their R&D 120%. Every once in a while their cells seem to improve; lower IR and higher voltage and capacity. I'm not saying that the matchers don't improve their techniques, but the voltage enhancement really isn't that complicated task. Nowadays my GP packs peak at the mentioned 3900 without deadshorting them. How far do the Sanyo go? GP could easily rename the current cells to a 3600mAh..
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Old 07-17-2004, 11:59 AM   #8
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back to marketing

My guess is that these batterys wholesale at about $3 each?

Does any one buy these batterys in quantity and sell them untested un zapped. If so whats the best price you have seen?

Does GP actually have a minimum spec fo the newer cells you would buy direct, like 1.14?

With the new better quality "shorty" cells being common, What typically happens to batterys that zapped and processed still don't test out at at least 1.15?

Since batteries with low numbers are virtually worthless to these resellers who zpa and match, you would think they would have some arrangement to have batterys pre-screened for them or a way of returning or selling off (wholesale) the ones that do not measure up.
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Old 07-17-2004, 12:28 PM   #9
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jkerr0043, If you know that much about batteries, they are rated by the output, not input of the cell. 3300 means 3.3 amps for one hour. 33 amps for 6 minutes if the IR is good and its a premium cell. Putting 3900 into the cell means nothing about its output.

420 sec (7 minutes) at 30 Amps at 1.1? volts = capacity of battery.

Imjonah,

The sub standard (read not A main) cells are sold as stick packs or unmatched packs. I have some 1.13 cells that I run. They work. Not everyone runs 1.18 460 sec packs. I know guys that race with 2400 and even 1700s. Some do verry well. Some like me don't care that much, its just for fun. I found in the past couple of years, matched low # packs are as cheap as unmatched packs. You are better off with the matched lower # packs than total mismatched packs. I found this from expierence.

I can and have done discharge tests of my own. NO its not a turbo matcher, but the results satisfy me. I use about 65 feet of 14 ga stranded wire doubled. This gives me an average of 30 amps on a single cell. NO its not 30 amps from start to finish, but it is an average of 30. I can test and match my own cells. I have an ocilliscope that measures voltage and time. It also keeps an average voltage for the entire time. I hook up my wire, turn on the record setting at the same time and when the battery gets down to .9 volts, I stop it. this will give me time in seconds, and average voltage. I can then match my own cells.
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Old 07-17-2004, 04:45 PM   #10
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I think you guys forget that us racers make up less then 15% of the R/C market.


All the big matchers have many avenues to get rid of the lower cells that are not the greatest for racing.
Its called stick packs! Every matcher sells them. the Back yard bashers who don't know the difference between a 1.165 and a 1.195 LOL they just read the cell label and eat it up. ( either 3300 or 3600)

I beleive the matchers that say the Sanyo 3600 is junk, the ones who have them, Trinity and Orion will be sport packin a lot of them. but that is okay, because us racers will benifit from the technolgy that comes. GP will come out with a 3600 and insane voltage. just watch
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