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Old 11-07-2010, 07:22 PM   #31
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My buddy has one of the older 4wd Tamiya F1 with independent supsension (F201 Maybe??) It is pretty coool with the front lay down shocks and the 4 wheel shaft drive. Unfotunately my newer F104 smokes it on the track although they are set up with different power systems and I have a much better wheel selection so it is not a fair race. It would be interesting to put them up against each other with equal motors and tires to see how they compare. Mine is definately a much more stripped down racer compared to the 4wd setup.

His definately looks more high tech with the body off... but mine looks a lot better passing it with the body on
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Old 11-07-2010, 07:35 PM   #32
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F1 RCs (2wd) are exciting to drive and challenging. If you want to try
a full suspension 2wd configuration, just remove the front drive train
of your 4WD car and test it.

My wish for RWD kits is front brakes.
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Old 11-07-2010, 08:25 PM   #33
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My wish for RWD kits is front brakes.
Try putting your front one-way in packwards. That should give you an idea of how it would feel
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Old 11-07-2010, 08:27 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by j.d.roost View Post
I have much respect (former member) for roar.

On a club level (ie.folks that are keeping the racing part of the hobby alive week to week) I can't tell you the last time I have been to a track and someone brought up roar or roar rules ect..

If someone wants to make a independent suspension rear f1 car that's cool.
(Roar rules don't mean jack as far a that's concerned)

As far as local tracks are concerned...well most classes enforce a motor/esc/battery per class.

With irs, a car it's going to be MUCH heavier.
Unless your club is running lower than 17.5/boost
it's not going to make much difference.

Now open the rule book at a local track...that's a different story.

if my calculations are correct a IRS F1 car will weigh no more than any current f1 with a NIMH pack, my design is very simple. LIPO has automatically given use a few hundred grams of weight to play with! i dont believe weight will be an issue at all. i also have a design that will give us Toe in and camber but still utilize a "solid" rear axle, i have already built a prototype for Mini z and it works very well, i will make this design for 10th scale before i actually move forward with IRS rear as it may actually work better and is way easier to make! i agree than "PAN" cars should not have the same rules as F1, its time to separate them, but in all reality they dont even have F1 classes at ROAR events so it really does not matter what the rules are. just think about it, at your local races how many of your drivers actually travel to big ROAR event? and of those drivers how many of them have factory sponsers? at the end of the day there is ALWAYS going to be two sides to all of this ESC's,motors etc etc i am the type that embraces technology and no matter what anyone tells me i can or cant do i will do/make what i want, if you dont want to buy it thats is fine but it is my intention to make these designs perform better than what we have now or what is the point? i did it with mini-z and i will do it with 10th scale.......
here are a few pix of some of the things i am working on:
sway bar kit that will include three springs and two bars (maybe only one, i cant get a thicker one to work under any circumstance) i was able to beat my best lap time by 3 tenths today with it and the car is now quicker than my 103 on asphalt!!

obviously this is a prototype but it fits under the body and utilizes a "high front" which is VERY interesting i cant wait to try it out but i still have to machine the cantilevers and decide what shocks i want to go with

Mantisworx chassis, carbon composite main chassis (30% stiffer than weaved carbon) it is a tri shock design that also uses a TRUE link design and a single ball pivot production version should be ready in about a month and i still have a few things i want to try out with it but it really plants the rear and the biggest advantage is under braking i can run 10%+ more braking and the car tracks straight while under braking.

and this is just pure beauty!!

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Old 11-07-2010, 08:36 PM   #35
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What most of you don't realize is that there is a way to do a fully independent suspension and have direct drive AND have the car weigh about the same as the "pan car style" F1 cars. You are no doubt thinking of touring car type suspensions with large shocks, etc that would indeed be too heavy and complex for an F1 car and they would be slower than the "pan car style" cars.

What I have in mind will be simple and it will not be heavy nor rely on large shocks, etc. And it would still be direct drive! When we get the prototype up and running we will reveal all. Unfortunately my partner has severe health problems at the moment and that is slowing things down from getting done. Patience.

Also, I'm not necessarily dissing ROAR; in fact I have been having a very cordial on-going conversation with it's president regarding the rules regarding pan cars and F1 cars in particular. We all have a right to disagree with ROAR rules and try to get them to institute changes. The idea of saying that we can ignore ROAR rules for our local track/club racing and do our own thing is fine, except that what I'm trying to accomplish is that by changing certain ROAR rules with regards to pan car and F1 car design, than the manufacturers such as Associated, Tamiya, Xray, HPI, etc., will be free to come up truely new designs for pan cars and F1 cars. The manufacturers are not going to try anything new that isn't accepted by ROAR rules and that is why pan car and F1 car design is stuck in a rut with 30+ year old archaic designs. Where is it written that a direct drive pan or F1 car can only have a solid rear axle? What if there were another way to achieve the same result with a simple independent rear suspension that would still be direct drive and ultra lightweight? You have to be able to think outside the box of conventional pan car design.

That is why I'm trying to work with ROAR about this.
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Old 11-07-2010, 08:40 PM   #36
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oh and i forgot to mention that the double wishbone front end has adjustable caster and camber!!
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Old 11-07-2010, 09:51 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by TheOldBoy View Post
A 2wd can be faster down the straight, but loses out in the corners to a 4wd, but for driving, you have to be a far better driver to drive a 2wd fast
True to a point, but with the right downforce and the right contact patch. You can have all of that speed with a 2WD. Even in the corners.
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Old 11-07-2010, 09:55 PM   #38
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To keep to the concept of real F1 racing, rear wheel drive is the same as the real F1's.
Touring cars now, depending on country, can be 4wd or 2wd, and making the scale cars 4wd makes them easier to drive, so that drags in racers, yet the cost is higher and maintaining them is higher, so therefore more dollars for the makers.

A 2wd can be faster down the straight, but loses out in the corners to a 4wd, but for driving, you have to be a far better driver to drive a 2wd fast
Given equal power, a pan car will absolutely destroy a touring car anywhere on the track... down a straight or around a turn and at the end of the day it will still be easier to set up, cheaper to run and less expensive if it breaks, which will be less often than a touring car.
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Old 11-07-2010, 10:03 PM   #39
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Given equal power, a pan car will absolutely destroy a touring car anywhere on the track... down a straight or around a turn and at the end of the day it will still be easier to set up, cheaper to run and less expensive if it breaks, which will be less often than a touring car.
Yeah but you have to have that perfect surface to run it on.
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Old 11-07-2010, 10:12 PM   #40
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Yeah but you have to have that perfect surface to run it on.
Not hard to do, the club I run with did it every Sunday this summer on a temp parking lot track. A leaf blower and a sprayer with sugar water and you are good to go.
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Old 11-07-2010, 10:55 PM   #41
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I love pan cars, think the F1's are great, but they are temperamental. Carpet has always been best, and to find permanent facilities is dam near impossible. You need a smooth carpeted surface to get the best out of these cars. Touring cars with 4WD independent suspension are better on a varied amount of track surfaces. That being said I've seen 1/10 pan 13.5 turn WGT cars drive circles around 13.5 Touring cars. Pan car tires are twice as wide, ten times as grippy. On carpet 10 pans are unequaled as far as performance, popularity is another matter!

Which is why I don't see F1's having the same staying power as touring cars. At one of the tracks I race at they had F1's. Looked incredible, inspirational. I was all ready to jump on board when the class just evaporated. They still have 1/12 scale some weeks, but F1's didn't have enough support to get a full time class running. Kinda disappointing. F1's were fun to watch, I'm sure they'd be equally as fun to drive.

The Tamiya F201's were (as far as I know) the only RC 4WD F1 car. They were plagued with an incredibly inefficient drive line. Neat to look at, didn't work so good on the track. The car quickly became a footnote in Tamiya's history. Every once in a while you'll see one (F210) on eBay
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Old 11-07-2010, 11:11 PM   #42
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There's no need to bother ROAR, just make what you are going to make. The last time F1 was run at a National was the 1998 Carpet Nats. The biggest F1 crowds are at Tamiya races, which don't affect you either.

Making stuff is cool, but in the end what works? I don't know except for what wins. The cars below were run in the RC F1 GP series in Japan, and the pictures came off of their website. From what i can tell, all the winners are based off of a 103 style design (straight axle, fixed lower front arm). This is probably the only competitive F1 series in the world outside of Tamiya races, in that several aftermarket manufacturers have teams running for them.









If you can make a car to beat what is out there now, that's awesome. I sort of have my doubts given the same power train you're going to beat a straight axle car. When dirt ovals got super smooth 20 years ago they started racing 52 ounce straight axle pan cars and beat all the 2wd independent suspension dirt cars.

At the same time, F1 is kind of a niche thing. The recent popularity is great. TOP is supposed to be launching a car as well. Changing what everyone thinks of as the requirements of the class (straight axle, 2wd) is not the way to go before it gets off the ground. At the same time, my personal feelings are that touring cars are becoming less popular due to their complexity among other things. The simplicity of a Tamiya F103 for example has helped them have a resurgence.
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Old 11-08-2010, 12:01 AM   #43
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Those cars look like they have IRS. It forces the displacement of the motor to one side, using the battery as a counterweight on the other side... but I think I see dogbones and cups and locating links in there!
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Old 11-08-2010, 12:03 AM   #44
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Wow, it's like frenkenstein F1!
Problems with F1 kits as I have discovered are:
Really needs a smooth track, TCs work on almost any surface with Sorex
Rear unsprung weight because of the motor
No rear camber/toe adjustment
No Sorex-like tyres (Im not sure about Ride tyres)
Motor is mounted transversely, should be longitudinal like real F1
No front brakes, scary not to lose control if you hit the brakes quickly
Stock aero dont have enough down force

That's just me.

Now if they could just pattern F1 designs from M06 or ABC Goose...
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Old 11-08-2010, 12:18 AM   #45
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Have all of the people commenting on how TC's are faster than pans ever run them? We race on an unprepared asphalt track, medium grip at best, and no tire additive. We just started running Pro10's there with GT style bodies (less traction), and 13.5's with 2 cell lipo.
After 2 race meets, our cars are almost as fast as the TC's that have been running for years. The pans have blistering pace through the corners.
As far as F1 goes, it's starting to catch on again here, but ONLY because they look realistic and are CHEAP.
I'll put a dollar on the class dying in 2 seconds flat if the rules are opened and manufacturers make full independant suspension cars. Why do I think that? Well, (1) they will cost more, how can it be cheaper than a graphite shaft? (2) They will add a new level of set-up required. Now tires are 90% of set-up, and the only other thing you can do to the rear end is adjust the ride height and centre shock.
I may be completely wrong, it's just my opinion, but I think the resurgence in interest in pan cars is the lower cost and less set-up requirement than TC's.
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