Thoughts on classes with no timing or boost
10-30-2010, 04:58 PM
#46
Tech Addict
Look around, even in the so called "spec" classes that are supposed to "save" racing as we know it, people are asking which motor/esc/battery is going to make them the fastest......
....The final reality check, I ask that you guys that have dropped down to a "spec/zero" class to be honest with yourselves, how many of you were consistently in the top half of the A-main before you decided the current class was too fast?
....The final reality check, I ask that you guys that have dropped down to a "spec/zero" class to be honest with yourselves, how many of you were consistently in the top half of the A-main before you decided the current class was too fast?
Spec racing needs to be the exact same single motor & esc, no exceptions otherwise whats the point.
You will have one guy with a faster brand of motor/esc & others will feel that they are being disadvantaged & feel the need for another rule change.
If you are going to have spec racing(spec motor,esc or tyres) to 'keep things even & low cost'
surely you need to make the chassis a single spec chassis as well.
Would the same arguments apply to chassis??
I think constant talk of rule changes has more of an effect on racers moving to higher spec classes. Who wants to spend up $$ to move up a class when there is a chance of the motor & esc rules being changed making your $$ investment unusable in the next season.
If you dont want to spend money on racing,or dont want to learn to drive faster cars, dont enter the faster higher spec classes.
10-30-2010, 05:06 PM
#47
I happy to say that our track will run 13.5 open 1/12 scale and 17.5 open rubber TC. We don't even have any interest in running spec
10-30-2010, 06:31 PM
#48
You still didn't answer my ? either Rob. Who is your source?
Last edited by Randy_Pike; 10-30-2010 at 10:56 PM.
10-30-2010, 07:20 PM
#50
F1, MotoGP, Nascar, AMA and a number of other racing bodies have taken steps to get speeds, cost or both under control. Most also have rules to keep the speeds somewhat equivalent within a class unless the class is an "open" class. A somewhat weak anology is running a normally aspirated 2.0 against a turbocharged 2.0 all else being equal. Most sanctioning bodies are smart enough to see this doesn't make for good racing, nor would forcing drivers who are not skilled enough into the turbo class be good for anyone on the track.
When F1 rules change to "control costs" by changing the formula [aero, chassis construction, or engine spec] it costs [if a team is lucky] millions of dollars. Changing to the "no refueling" rule for this year did slow the cars down, and forced a strategy change, not a bigger re-tooling budget.
MotoGP, same deal.
NASCAR, splitter dimensions and wing/spoiler heights = easy and cheap [comparatively]. Engines still cost as much as an econobox from a dealership, but aside from new block codes being introduced, the basic engine design hasn't changed since the 50's. R&D cost on engines now comes down to matching legal parts to the desirable power band for the track you're racing, and suspension geometry for the track.
I won't go so far as to say when something pops up that was never anticipated, but not illegal at the time, that it should be immediately banned to preserve the status-quo. If that was the case, stadium trucks would still be aluminum tubbed, pan cars would have solid front suspension, electric races would be 4 minutes, and you'd sweat about dumping if you were .1sec faster than you had been in practice, in STOCK!
Technology changes, our toys become easier to work on, faster, cooler running, longer run time, better handling.
If you don't want to embrace that, I probably still have enough yellow label Sanyo's to supply your whole club with batteries. That'll slow you down.
Since we are being honest perhaps the people railing the loudest against the spec class aren't too happy about the easy competition going elsewhere?
I work offshore, have limited racing time when I'm home, and I spend at LEAST $3-4k a year on my 1:1 racing and $2k a year on my RC stuff. I don't spend that much to figure out how to go slower.
then you also are aware that several things have been banned for being to fast for the class, I.E. they banned the yamaha 350 twin 2 stoke from racing against the larger 750 harleys, they banned kenny roberts 750 from the 750 class, they banned the Ford DOHC 427 and Boss 429 motors from Nascar, the banned (I don't remember which one) a chaperal from the class for creating to much down force, racing has always controlled speed in one way or another, with the winston cup cars started going over 200 they slowed them down, they made the 1/4 mile shorter for top fuel classes, I could go on and on and on about "real" racing putting controls on speed so don't even go there with the "in real racing bull"
and to answer your last question, me, top half 17.5 boosted and I think 17.5 boosted is stupid, and prefer non boosted as that returns the class to "stock" status. not that I run it, just saying.
These are the points that everyone seems to ignore.
Spec racing needs to be the exact same single motor & esc, no exceptions otherwise whats the point.
You will have one guy with a faster brand of motor/esc & others will feel that they are being disadvantaged & feel the need for another rule change.
If you are going to have spec racing(spec motor,esc or tyres) to 'keep things even & low cost'
surely you need to make the chassis a single spec chassis as well.
Would the same arguments apply to chassis??
Spec racing needs to be the exact same single motor & esc, no exceptions otherwise whats the point.
You will have one guy with a faster brand of motor/esc & others will feel that they are being disadvantaged & feel the need for another rule change.
If you are going to have spec racing(spec motor,esc or tyres) to 'keep things even & low cost'
surely you need to make the chassis a single spec chassis as well.
Would the same arguments apply to chassis??
I think constant talk of rule changes has more of an effect on racers moving to higher spec classes. Who wants to spend up $$ to move up a class when there is a chance of the motor & esc rules being changed making your $$ investment unusable in the next season.
Except, apparently, the VTA guys...
Again, don't get me wrong, we have a VTA class at my local track, and the cars look very cool going around the track. I just don't want to be shoehorned into one brand of anything to run a class, even if I like the brand. I would rather vote with my dollars, than to be obligated to support a single brand. Case in point, I'm more apt to run WGT now that there's 2-3 "legal" brands for the spec tires. I may only ever buy one brand for whatever reason, but I'm not "stuck" with that brand if my feelings change for whatever reason in the future [cs, qc, etc...].
If you dont want to spend money on racing,or dont want to learn to drive faster cars, dont enter the faster higher spec classes.
To me, it's a lot like missionaries coming to my door. If I were interested in a religion change, or more info on a certain faith, I would seek it out. Standing on my porch and telling me how my current beliefs are wrong will just tick me off and get the sprinklers turned on.
10-30-2010, 08:12 PM
#51
"...Variety and customization are as much a part, and draw to this hobby/sport as any other reason. ... If I lived somewhere that had a 100% spec class and I couldn't do or try anything else other than race the chassis/motor/esc/battery they spelled out down to the brand, I'd do something else and take my money with me."
1000% agree with ya brother. I could not have said it any better than that.
Not that anyone cares, but I ran my first nitro TC race and had a total blast! Very fun racing and it was easy to get into: any 10th scale TC chassis and a .12 motor of MY choosing. I went on the cheap side for the motor, because, well.... I'm cheap.
1000% agree with ya brother. I could not have said it any better than that.
Not that anyone cares, but I ran my first nitro TC race and had a total blast! Very fun racing and it was easy to get into: any 10th scale TC chassis and a .12 motor of MY choosing. I went on the cheap side for the motor, because, well.... I'm cheap.
10-30-2010, 08:19 PM
#52
Tech Addict
iTrader: (14)
Interesting read. I was hesitant to reply due to being new the whole electric on-road scene, but here it goes.
I think the no timing class is genius as it attracts new racers to the class. Myself and my buddy have recently joined the RCGT ranks due to the rules that apply there, which is the non timing esc's. We think of it as a driver's class, you loose to the guy with the better skill, not necessarily the guy with the most cash. I do not think that NON timing esc's should be all that anyone should run regardless of what class you are in, but it has it's place. I am a true to the core gear-head and I really like the effort guys are putting into making their cars faster due to changing settings into the esc's, timing of the motor, etc, however it is not for everyone. It takes a cash layout that most of us do not have. I do not care who you are, you are going to end up pushing your equipment too far and it's going to cost replacing that esc, motor, etc. Let those guys do their thing, let them thinker, let them have a class. Your money, you decide what class you want to run.
Let us not forget that this is a tough economy, not everyone has cash to stick to the latest and greatest, hence why I was attracted to the RCGT class. More proof lies in the fact that there were a total of 4 racers this past Thursday running TC, 4 running WGT, and about 20-25 running RCGT. This is proof right there that this NON-TIMING esc thing is working, more people are buying into it, the manufacturers are making more cash.
Do I think that the RCGT or any other NON-Timing class will have no cheaters??? Absolutely not. Let's not forget that what is running these esc's is software. ANY software CAN AND WILL BE hacked. There is no doubt about that. I would wager to say that a Tekin, Novak, etc's software encryption is not on par with a Microsoft, Activision, hell, you name the makes of the software. Look what happened to all their encryption. You build a better trap, I'll build a better mouse, simple as that.
While on the whole "blinking light" and I am legal issue, I do not think that w/out the proper eq to test the output and timing of an esc a track can tell that the car is legal. They teched a car this past Thursday, he looked at the blinking light and the motor turn, ride height, tires. 2 seconds later, the car was deemed legal. It's the only thing that could be done.
Let's say I wanted to cheat. Hell, I do not even need to crack the software to make an adjustable timing esc pass tech. It's a damn led light after all. Last I checked Radio Shack sold 555 chips for 2 bucks. It's only about 1.5mm in height. I can make the light blink as fast or as slow as I damn please.
Non timing esc's attract people to YOUR hobby, I speak from experience. You want to cry about being slowed down, brag about spending 2k on on-road, that is fine. Just don't complain when you are the only guy on the stand. I spent under 400, so did the 25 other guys that raced RCGT that day. The other two classes combined did not even have enough people for a sausage party.
-=Bobby=-
I think the no timing class is genius as it attracts new racers to the class. Myself and my buddy have recently joined the RCGT ranks due to the rules that apply there, which is the non timing esc's. We think of it as a driver's class, you loose to the guy with the better skill, not necessarily the guy with the most cash. I do not think that NON timing esc's should be all that anyone should run regardless of what class you are in, but it has it's place. I am a true to the core gear-head and I really like the effort guys are putting into making their cars faster due to changing settings into the esc's, timing of the motor, etc, however it is not for everyone. It takes a cash layout that most of us do not have. I do not care who you are, you are going to end up pushing your equipment too far and it's going to cost replacing that esc, motor, etc. Let those guys do their thing, let them thinker, let them have a class. Your money, you decide what class you want to run.
Let us not forget that this is a tough economy, not everyone has cash to stick to the latest and greatest, hence why I was attracted to the RCGT class. More proof lies in the fact that there were a total of 4 racers this past Thursday running TC, 4 running WGT, and about 20-25 running RCGT. This is proof right there that this NON-TIMING esc thing is working, more people are buying into it, the manufacturers are making more cash.
Do I think that the RCGT or any other NON-Timing class will have no cheaters??? Absolutely not. Let's not forget that what is running these esc's is software. ANY software CAN AND WILL BE hacked. There is no doubt about that. I would wager to say that a Tekin, Novak, etc's software encryption is not on par with a Microsoft, Activision, hell, you name the makes of the software. Look what happened to all their encryption. You build a better trap, I'll build a better mouse, simple as that.
While on the whole "blinking light" and I am legal issue, I do not think that w/out the proper eq to test the output and timing of an esc a track can tell that the car is legal. They teched a car this past Thursday, he looked at the blinking light and the motor turn, ride height, tires. 2 seconds later, the car was deemed legal. It's the only thing that could be done.
Let's say I wanted to cheat. Hell, I do not even need to crack the software to make an adjustable timing esc pass tech. It's a damn led light after all. Last I checked Radio Shack sold 555 chips for 2 bucks. It's only about 1.5mm in height. I can make the light blink as fast or as slow as I damn please.
Non timing esc's attract people to YOUR hobby, I speak from experience. You want to cry about being slowed down, brag about spending 2k on on-road, that is fine. Just don't complain when you are the only guy on the stand. I spent under 400, so did the 25 other guys that raced RCGT that day. The other two classes combined did not even have enough people for a sausage party.
-=Bobby=-
10-31-2010, 04:30 AM
#54
+1. This is what I've been trying to say, do what's best for your group of racers, just don't confuse what's best for one track as being best for all tracks.
10-31-2010, 04:33 AM
#55
Really good arguments on both sides of the equation. I know this thread is way off topic but it is very good reading just the same. What I don't get is that each side seems to think that you either have to run all your classes with timing or all your classes without. We have two rubber TC classes this year. Both 17.5. Stock runs without timing, Super stock runs with timing. Choose your class based on what floats your boat and be done with it. Hell, you can even run both classes if you want.
We also have a new class this year which after only a month of racing has about twice as many cars running as any of the other classes. It is TT-01s with silver cans and the kit supplied ESC. Very few mods are allowed. I won't waste your time telling you why it's such a huge hit because you already know.
As to catching speedo software cheaters in non timing classes, get a radar gun and set a max speed on the straight. If your car goes too fast, you lose that lap. We may even do this for the silver cans as it's much easier to cheat with those.
Bottom line, I think we can have our cake and eat it too. We can have classes that use timing and classes that don't. At my local full scale dirt track, we have 4 classes that go from an old junked American clunker to to 700 hp full race machines. Drivers move up through the ranks based on skill more than cost. I have been told that the higher end stuff is actually cheaper to run in the long run because the rules never change. A good set of rules that are easy to enforce and makes for good close racing is what most of us are looking for. For me and many others, classes like VTA are the answer. For others that feel the need to go faster, there is a class for that as well.
As for the decline in road racing popularity, I don't think it's anything we current racers are doing that is the cause. I also don't think there is much we can do to change the trend. The problem is that it requires you to buy something and assemble it. Then you have to learn to make lots of complicated adjustments to get it to perform well. I have spent hundreds of hours reading and testing and learning and practicing. The current generation that should be stepping into the hobby has little interest in this sort of challenge. They can sit down at a computer game and race a virtual car that handles perfectly. The other day, my nephew had to show me all the tricks he could do on his computer skateboard game. He was very proud. I asked if he would like a skateboard for Christmas. No thanks, but I'd like another computer game. Very strange to someone like me. Anyway, I think our sport is probably doomed in the long run because of this. In the mean time, lets race!
We also have a new class this year which after only a month of racing has about twice as many cars running as any of the other classes. It is TT-01s with silver cans and the kit supplied ESC. Very few mods are allowed. I won't waste your time telling you why it's such a huge hit because you already know.
As to catching speedo software cheaters in non timing classes, get a radar gun and set a max speed on the straight. If your car goes too fast, you lose that lap. We may even do this for the silver cans as it's much easier to cheat with those.
Bottom line, I think we can have our cake and eat it too. We can have classes that use timing and classes that don't. At my local full scale dirt track, we have 4 classes that go from an old junked American clunker to to 700 hp full race machines. Drivers move up through the ranks based on skill more than cost. I have been told that the higher end stuff is actually cheaper to run in the long run because the rules never change. A good set of rules that are easy to enforce and makes for good close racing is what most of us are looking for. For me and many others, classes like VTA are the answer. For others that feel the need to go faster, there is a class for that as well.
As for the decline in road racing popularity, I don't think it's anything we current racers are doing that is the cause. I also don't think there is much we can do to change the trend. The problem is that it requires you to buy something and assemble it. Then you have to learn to make lots of complicated adjustments to get it to perform well. I have spent hundreds of hours reading and testing and learning and practicing. The current generation that should be stepping into the hobby has little interest in this sort of challenge. They can sit down at a computer game and race a virtual car that handles perfectly. The other day, my nephew had to show me all the tricks he could do on his computer skateboard game. He was very proud. I asked if he would like a skateboard for Christmas. No thanks, but I'd like another computer game. Very strange to someone like me. Anyway, I think our sport is probably doomed in the long run because of this. In the mean time, lets race!
10-31-2010, 07:55 AM
#56
Really good arguments on both sides of the equation. I know this thread is way off topic but it is very good reading just the same. What I don't get is that each side seems to think that you either have to run all your classes with timing or all your classes without. We have two rubber TC classes this year. Both 17.5. Stock runs without timing, Super stock runs with timing. Choose your class based on what floats your boat and be done with it. Hell, you can even run both classes if you want.
We also have a new class this year which after only a month of racing has about twice as many cars running as any of the other classes. It is TT-01s with silver cans and the kit supplied ESC. Very few mods are allowed. I won't waste your time telling you why it's such a huge hit because you already know.
As to catching speedo software cheaters in non timing classes, get a radar gun and set a max speed on the straight. If your car goes too fast, you lose that lap. We may even do this for the silver cans as it's much easier to cheat with those.
Bottom line, I think we can have our cake and eat it too. We can have classes that use timing and classes that don't. At my local full scale dirt track, we have 4 classes that go from an old junked American clunker to to 700 hp full race machines. Drivers move up through the ranks based on skill more than cost. I have been told that the higher end stuff is actually cheaper to run in the long run because the rules never change. A good set of rules that are easy to enforce and makes for good close racing is what most of us are looking for. For me and many others, classes like VTA are the answer. For others that feel the need to go faster, there is a class for that as well.
As for the decline in road racing popularity, I don't think it's anything we current racers are doing that is the cause. I also don't think there is much we can do to change the trend. The problem is that it requires you to buy something and assemble it. Then you have to learn to make lots of complicated adjustments to get it to perform well. I have spent hundreds of hours reading and testing and learning and practicing. The current generation that should be stepping into the hobby has little interest in this sort of challenge. They can sit down at a computer game and race a virtual car that handles perfectly. The other day, my nephew had to show me all the tricks he could do on his computer skateboard game. He was very proud. I asked if he would like a skateboard for Christmas. No thanks, but I'd like another computer game. Very strange to someone like me. Anyway, I think our sport is probably doomed in the long run because of this. In the mean time, lets race!
We also have a new class this year which after only a month of racing has about twice as many cars running as any of the other classes. It is TT-01s with silver cans and the kit supplied ESC. Very few mods are allowed. I won't waste your time telling you why it's such a huge hit because you already know.
As to catching speedo software cheaters in non timing classes, get a radar gun and set a max speed on the straight. If your car goes too fast, you lose that lap. We may even do this for the silver cans as it's much easier to cheat with those.
Bottom line, I think we can have our cake and eat it too. We can have classes that use timing and classes that don't. At my local full scale dirt track, we have 4 classes that go from an old junked American clunker to to 700 hp full race machines. Drivers move up through the ranks based on skill more than cost. I have been told that the higher end stuff is actually cheaper to run in the long run because the rules never change. A good set of rules that are easy to enforce and makes for good close racing is what most of us are looking for. For me and many others, classes like VTA are the answer. For others that feel the need to go faster, there is a class for that as well.
As for the decline in road racing popularity, I don't think it's anything we current racers are doing that is the cause. I also don't think there is much we can do to change the trend. The problem is that it requires you to buy something and assemble it. Then you have to learn to make lots of complicated adjustments to get it to perform well. I have spent hundreds of hours reading and testing and learning and practicing. The current generation that should be stepping into the hobby has little interest in this sort of challenge. They can sit down at a computer game and race a virtual car that handles perfectly. The other day, my nephew had to show me all the tricks he could do on his computer skateboard game. He was very proud. I asked if he would like a skateboard for Christmas. No thanks, but I'd like another computer game. Very strange to someone like me. Anyway, I think our sport is probably doomed in the long run because of this. In the mean time, lets race!
10-31-2010, 08:22 AM
#57
you make some great points. Non-timing seems to suit my experience level a little better but if my club went back to open timing I'd still be racing. This is largely dependant on how many racers a track has. If there are only a handfull showing up for touring car it makes sense to choose one class and stick with it. If the majority of that turnout are experienced racers perhaps it makes more sense to go open speedo rule. Tracks with a more robust turnout have the option of running as many classes as they want without diluting the fields to the point that races turn into meaningless timed practice sessions.
The same thing goes for which direction to run. Since the Indoor Champs and Snowbirds are running both road and oval, they are running the road course counter clockwise. So, we have been running club races counter clockwise as well. Some purists don't like it, but everyone else just adapts.
10-31-2010, 08:43 AM
#59
I wouldn't be so confident nobody has hacked it
And the early theories was not a customer hacking it (though I and many others said it), but Team only software....and now with the Spec mode.....whats to stop a Company, besides ethics, from showing up at a race with subtle boosted software.....
Smyka, doing what I do best!
Later EddieO
And the early theories was not a customer hacking it (though I and many others said it), but Team only software....and now with the Spec mode.....whats to stop a Company, besides ethics, from showing up at a race with subtle boosted software.....
Smyka, doing what I do best!
Later EddieO
Agree with you , this time next year many races will be disputed due to hacked programs in stock ..
Roar open the door to the cheats now and spec will be like always , the guy with the fastest motor wins not the driver ....
10-31-2010, 11:16 AM
#60
Would it be possible for Tekin, Hobbywing, Speedpassion, Novak and the like to agree on a set of parimeters for a no timing setting. Make it the same across the board. Then create a software where all the track has to do is plug the esc into a pc and see all of the esc settings and if need set the esc to track specs before each race and before the mains. After esc has been check esc is not allowed to be connected to any pc.