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Old 07-06-2004, 10:32 PM   #1
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Default 12 turn motor limits...Your experience?

Recently, our National body passed a ruling on the modified touring class which imposed a 12 turn limit on motors. Currently they have no way to actually test the motors and some sort of device is "in development" to allow this.

I understand the 12 turn limit is the same as the one EFRA(?)adopted and was wondering...

If you race in Europe using this motor limit, what has been your experience in the past few years?

1. Are we likely to damage motors on a regular basis through over advancing timing and over gearing? Is this necessary to extract the most power from them?
2. Do you think a limit is a good or bad idea in general? Please explain your answer.

I'd appreciate any input you may have.
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Old 07-06-2004, 10:43 PM   #2
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We will have a limit of 24 degrees timing so that should eliminate the problems with over advancing the timing

Last edited by Seano; 07-06-2004 at 10:51 PM.
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Old 07-06-2004, 11:34 PM   #3
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I don't remember a 24 degree limit on timing being mentioned, I will check my notes later!

Cheers
Peter

Ps, as a generalisation I don't think limiting technology is a way to go to for cheaper racing. Try winning stock touring without good cells, fresh motors and a top end car.
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Old 07-06-2004, 11:38 PM   #4
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6.11.5 Electric Touring Cars, running Modified, are limited to a twelve (12) turn armature. The endbell may
be advanced no more than 24 degrees.
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Old 07-06-2004, 11:38 PM   #5
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Hey Simon,
Why arn't you at Hamilton?
We are using 9 and 8 turm motors this year.
12 turn would be great. It would take away the battery wars. But I wouldn't worry about it as I don't think it will happen in reality.
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Old 07-06-2004, 11:42 PM   #6
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We used a 12 turn motor limit in Victoria for a number of years...

In my opinion it was much cheaper racing, especially throughout the year,...I got a whole season of fortnightly racing out of one motor!...

Tire wear was significantly reduced....and tire performance drop off was far less noticable, as we werent asking so much of the tires....

wear and tear on teh car also was reduced....CVD's Pulleys / belts etc lasting longer due to less stress.

Alot of racers have wanted to go back to a motor limit for club racing, we had great racing using 12 turns...
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Old 07-06-2004, 11:54 PM   #7
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Just checked 6.11.5

My eyes must have glazed over at 12 turn.

Cheers Peter
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Old 07-06-2004, 11:56 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pedro 51
Just checked 6.11.5

My eyes must have glazed over at 12 turn.

Cheers Peter
Yeah me too the first time I read it, was quite a suprise but i think it will be good. Might entice me to get back into mod again
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Old 07-07-2004, 12:41 AM   #9
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here in france we race 12 turns in mod..

Battery wars don t exist much anymore, and there are no issues with it... we love it
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Old 07-07-2004, 01:28 AM   #10
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Friends. Greetings from Malta.

PLEASE - PLEASE - for your own sakes and for your own pockets, read this and think about it.

Don't go for a 12 turn limit unless you also go for a 2000 mah cell limit. Here are our experiences.

In the days of 2000s and 2400s we used to run 12 turn motors, occasionally 11s. You couldn't overgear or over advance much because you wouldn't get the necessary duration - 5 minute races in our case, so 12s were OK. Anything less and you had a time problem.

Then we got 3000s. Everybody found extra run time so up went the gearing, up went the timing, and puff went the motors.

We moved to 10 turn motors with 3000s and that was OK. Then we got 3300s and suddenly we had the same problem again with 10 turn motors going puff with monotonous regularity.

We now run 8 turn motors and have just completed a full season in which my son won the National championship with 20 wins from 23 starts.......all on just 3 motors for the whole season, including practice and testing. This has been our most exciting, our most successful, and definately our cheapest season of racing in the last 12 years.

Last year we decided to do a couple of meetings in England where at National level they have a 12 turn limit. The number of motors I burnt out before we finally got it right was rediculous.

As for 24 degree timing, you don't even need that to burn motors with 3000s let alone 3300s.

Quite a few countries in Europe are realising this, and opening up the mod motor limit. I know there is a big anti limit faction in England and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see it removed at the next AGM of the BRCA, so please, don't fall into the same trap ------for your own sakes. We know. We've been there!

The 12 turn limit was introduced in 1998 with good reason. It was the right thing to do then, but times have changed, batteries have improved as have speedos, and the 12 turn motor is now a very weak link. And a costly one at that.

PLEASE - PLEASE - listen to somebody that's been there.

Have fun.

Joe from sunny Malta.
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Old 07-07-2004, 03:00 AM   #11
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Howdy yall

I have mixed feelings about motor limits in the "fast" classes...

With a limit, as Joe said, to make the most of current batteries' capacities, you time the crap out of 12 turns and they burn up quicker... But there's no battery capacity race anymore. However everyone now looks for voltage... So it's a mixed result. Like Joe, I think the 12t limit made sense when we didn't have those 3800mAh batteries for $45 (that's what my middle-range GP3300 rate at).

Without limit, cars are quicker, and driving and setup skills become even more important. Motors don't burn up as quick because you don't overstress them. On the other hand, you now race for battery capacity (everyone wants 430s+ packs), and as somebody mentioned, the whole transmission chain (from pinion to tires) wears out faster... So it's a draw game IMHO.

However... it's been a while since I ran sick winds (read sub 10t) and I have to admit I miss them... So I say: no more limit! I want to hear 60KRPM motors blow past the drivers' stand in the straight, woohoo!!!

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Old 07-07-2004, 04:44 AM   #12
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I think johnbull's post explains what I've tried to explain to a few people. One other thing is, that from what I can see in pictures of tracks in Europe, in general they're alot bigger and more flowing than what we have here in NZ, and I honestly don't think a 12 turn will suit the type of tracks we have (maybe it will? I have not tried one yet). I do have an 11x2 Reedy Ti, and if I want to go fast with it, I have to gear it up, and it then goes through brushes just as quick if not quicker than my 9x2 Ti, and the comm is just as bad after a run. But, if that rule is passed, rules are rules, and maybe it will work better?
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Old 07-07-2004, 05:22 AM   #13
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I think after one years racing the reality will show. I can almost garantee u that no south islanders will race at the electric nats. We usually travel together and if we are not happy about something then we will not go. We will go to aussie instead. I tried my best to defend the current rules at the agm but the people that had the votes had different ideas so it was hard to get anywhere really.

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Old 07-07-2004, 06:31 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Trevor
I think johnbull's post explains what I've tried to explain to a few people. One other thing is, that from what I can see in pictures of tracks in Europe, in general they're alot bigger and more flowing than what we have here in NZ, and I honestly don't think a 12 turn will suit the type of tracks we have (maybe it will? I have not tried one yet). I do have an 11x2 Reedy Ti, and if I want to go fast with it, I have to gear it up, and it then goes through brushes just as quick if not quicker than my 9x2 Ti, and the comm is just as bad after a run. But, if that rule is passed, rules are rules, and maybe it will work better?
I don't get you. How can you need to gear up more than us if our tracks are bigger ? My understanding is that a bigger track request a bigger pinion...

As for overgearing, over timing etc... If you want to be stupid and do it, then it's your problem and you won't be satisfied with the motor limit. But no one in france burns a comm in one run anymore (UNLIKE when there was no motor limit) unless he made a mistake and admits it. You don't have to overgear, over-time etc to be quick, you just have to do it correctly.
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Old 07-07-2004, 06:57 AM   #15
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Default I'm for it 100%

We race with the 12T limit for 3 years.

What happened since?

The best racers use less motors during the year. A lot less.

There's less time spent in which motor which ratio to use and this made people invest in setup skills.

On the first year all the records in all the tracks were broken.
On the second year we broke them again. Some tracks by 2 laps.

From my experience I wear motors a lot less than I used too. There's no need to over gear at all. If you do, your motor may become a dud.

A motor has a ratio to work well. No one is going past that point for the simple reason it wont gain any performance. ALL the racers around here spend less in motors.

The racing is much more leveled. There's little chance of one racer having a motor that out runs everybody else. The motors are more leveled even among different makers.

For us it was a positive rule. Hope you can adapt as well as we did.
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