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Old 07-07-2004, 06:46 PM   #31
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Mod is mod, you either step up to the plate with the equipment or you don't. I personal run mod oval and do not have the same batteries the premier racers do, but I don't care, it's just fun to go fast. I run a 9x2 while the guys with the $'s run 6x2, they have 450-460 packs, I have 420-425 packs, they run 4.4 sec times up front, I run as low as a few 4.6 sec laps "sometimes". BUT I STILL HAVE AN ABSOLUTE BLAST!!!! If you limit mod it becomes spec, what's the fun in that?
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Old 07-07-2004, 06:51 PM   #32
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Hi wagonman, we will still have an "all out" class even if the 12t limit goes ahead for touring modified. The other class is called super touring, uses lola type bodies and any motor you like.

Antonio, wow thanks for all that info, nice to know you can test cheaply
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Old 07-07-2004, 11:14 PM   #33
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Thanks for the input guys, much appreciated. I still think it's a stupid idea but will have to wait and see what happens now over the next few months.
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Old 07-08-2004, 02:15 AM   #34
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Antonio....and others ofcourse. Greetings from Malta.

We had this discussion about testing mod motors and I have been doing quite a bit of research recently.

The BRCA uses an instrument produced by Glyn Ward of BRM motors. It was also used at the Worlds in 98 when they had a 12 turn motor limit. I suggest you read all about the tester there.

Glyn mentions the system you are suggesting, of connecting to the 2 terminals and rotating the spur, but he also says it is very "hit and miss".

What he states very clearly is that every single motor has different values, and unless you have the manufacturers values for every single motor you cannot test accurately.

You mention a number of 17.5. Well, if you look on the list that Glyn supplies you will probably find 11s, 12s, and 13, with those numbers - and remember he only has probably 1/30th of the available motors covered in his list.

I have always been of the belief that unless you can police something properly, don't do it.

Perhaps in your club you don't have people that try to cheat. In that case you are very lucky indeed and you must be a World exception. We have a 21 turn stock class - with sealed control motors - and people still try fitting lower turn armatures in them, and getting away with it sometimes too.

But more importantly, like I said, we have run 12s we have run 10s and we have run 8s, and with the present 3300 cells our cheapest season by a mile was running 8s.

We tried both. We now know from experience. Have you guys tried both conclusively too ?

I shouldn't really be too bothered if people fry their motors. It's better for business, but as a club official I feel a responsibility to advise enthusiasts on what we have found to be cheapest and easiest, and in our case that is definately NO LIMIT IN MOD.

However I respect your opinions even if I disagree with them.

Regards

Joe from sunny Malta.
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Old 07-08-2004, 03:04 AM   #35
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what's all this bickering 'bout the 12T limits. Stock class is a limited class, over here in asia 23T super stock is a limited class, in the US there is another 19T class and now a 12T class. Don't see the point of all this bickering and protest and so forth. ALL motors will go kapoom if you over gear, over timed and over something...period. So with all this rules limiting the winds....in my opinion, this makes rooms for people to improve on skills rather than trying to keep up with those fast boys with a faster motor....everybody is racing on a same platform....you need to develop not only driving skills but car setup skills and motor tuning skills too to make it to the top. This is healthy. If you do not find this limiting business not your cup of tea...go and run in the open modified or pro class where every thing is open including your wallet.
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Old 07-08-2004, 03:21 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnbull

But more importantly, like I said, we have run 12s we have run 10s and we have run 8s, and with the present 3300 cells our cheapest season by a mile was running 8s.

In my opinion any class can be economical or it'll burn a hole in ya wallet mate.....it all boils down to how "Over done" . With a 8T you could not run the ratio as the 12T or the 23T....so you gear towards where you could make the time. What happens when there is a new 4500 cells....wow now you could gear the 8T like the 12T with 3300 cells...so what happen...."Hell ! 8T very expensive to run" remember this line "never had a problem with the 12T when using 2400 cells and now with 3300 cells very expensive....." the moral is don't over do it mate and you can't go wrong.
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Old 07-08-2004, 04:06 AM   #37
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John,

One of our references when trying to figure out how to tech motors was BRM. The meter they sell also measures inductance. However it has a dedicated mount for our motors.

The issue with values can be solved by teching the armature. When in doubt we take it out and look at the factory marks. Since the manufacturers have to follow the EFRA rule most of them comply.
Brand, turn and EFRA Spec stamps are on the armature.
It's probably more dificult to cheat, However you can always unwind the motor and take a turn out...
Anyway, the difference between drivers is not enough to make anyone a clear suspect.

We are not many racers, probably 30-35 different guys during the year.
I raced with free motors and now I run with 12. From my personal experience, 12's were cheaper for me.

Even the choice is less complicated. Now we have the nightmare of choice narrowed considerably.

During a whole year using several motors (1 Core, 1 Ti 12x1 and 1 Ti 12x2 and 1x Carrera) practicing every weekend around 8-10 packs, I managed to wear only one comm (the Ti 12x1). It was my favorite and I found myself using it very often in practice. Probably the load on that motor was 80% of the whole year.

Other guys that race with me confirm that 12's were responsible for their lower spending (motor wise). Of course they'll spend the money in other stuff, but motor wise it was lower like my own experience.

What I notice (and not only me) is that people focused more in practice, setup, method etc etc.
A group of 4-5 racers jumped from the B finals to the A. Racing got more close, and often we lap within .2 .5 seconds of the track record. And this happens with a group of 4-5 racers.
It was not like that before.

I saw guys taking 4 new motors to the track (8, 9 ...) just for one race. Now you don't see that.

I believe that when this kind of ruling happens, the reaction is very exagerated. No one thinks about it after a while.
No one over gears insanely or advances a motor to 36. If it does he deserves everything that may happen to him LOL
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Old 07-08-2004, 05:05 AM   #38
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people gear their 12 turns at 4.75 at Lostallo (italian-speaking part of switzerland) during official races... the track where the 2002 euros were help. The cars reach 82kph at the end of the straight... One run, the can is toast and the endbell is melted.

Doesn't that sound like overgearing?

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Old 07-08-2004, 05:10 AM   #39
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Fair enough.

We all have our different opinions, and the main thing is that we all respect each others.

At least we have all remained civil, and haven't started hurling insults at each other as one sees in some other threads, which is great.

Well done all.

Antonio, what country are you from ?
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Old 07-08-2004, 07:17 AM   #40
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Hi John,

I'm from Portugal. Almost as sunny as Malta and just a little bit bigger

I like the way we can express our opinions in a way that others can profit from it.
Hope it helps the guys from NZ no matter what they choose to do.
Small countries or comunities should center their interest in having the MOST racers possible regardless of tech issues.

I know we struggle with that every year. I'm sure that Malta must have a very similar problem.

Small but proud
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Old 07-08-2004, 07:19 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lonestar
people gear their 12 turns at 4.75 at Lostallo (italian-speaking part of switzerland) during official races... the track where the 2002 euros were help. The cars reach 82kph at the end of the straight... One run, the can is toast and the endbell is melted.

Doesn't that sound like overgearing?

Paul


That's OVEEEEEERGEARING. I bet that the local racers won't do that, do they?
A buddy of mine went to the Euros in 2002 and at the time he said that the guys were using 5.4 5.6 but nothing like 4.75.
In fact after he returned we tried those ratios with the Ti (non Euro versions) and the performance was quite good and durability too

Now I understand why a Swiss company made motors witl alu endbell ROFL ROFL

Why dont they race in a smaller variant of the 1/8 track?? That's what we do around here...
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Old 07-08-2004, 08:03 AM   #42
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What sort of lap times do the mod TCs do on your track Antionio. We can judge the size that way.

We have lots of variations on the same track. Running say a 10 turn mod on our standard track the times are 17s. The 21 turn stock will do 19s and the really quick guys will dip into the 18s.

On the "long circuit" the quick mods get into the 22s, and our short circuit configuration lap times for mod are in the 13s.

I'll try and post some pics of our track later.

Have you seen the Euros videos on Orion website ?

Regards

Joe.
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Old 07-08-2004, 08:23 AM   #43
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The tracks closest to where I live are also for 1/8 and we do 22-23 sec per lap (the fast guys)
On both curcuits we have variants that are used for electrics (once in a while) and lap times area round 18.
We had one track where a 30sec per lap would be an excelent lap.

We have only one track with those 16-17 per lap.

Yeah I did!! Kind of makes us like our sunny countries, isn't it? LOL

One of our guys went there to race. I still haven't seen him since he returned, but I knew he didn't race on the last 2 finals... Imagine going all the way to Sweden to find that weather!!!

Last edited by antoniop; 07-08-2004 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 07-08-2004, 08:54 AM   #44
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I agree about the weather. We are so lucky.

Our championship starts in October and finishes in May. It's too hot to race in summer so instead we meet up in the evenings at the track under floodlights.

It's much more civilised that way.
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Old 07-08-2004, 10:23 AM   #45
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I race in the UK at my local club where we do not use a motor limit. Most weeks Glyn Ward of BRM races there. Talking to him about motor winds, he says a lot of people want lower wind motors to give them more speed but cant even get the most out of there 12 turns especialy with TCs. In fact people who use 19 turn spec motors beat those using 12 or even 10 turn just because they drive smoother.
Even with the 12 turn limit unless you can afford to have your motors built by someone like Glyn and skimmed and brushed every race your motor will never be as fast as theirs.
For example one racer who started to use Glyns motors (money no object for his dad) began to beat me every week by 1 or 2 laps but since we started to race 19 turn Spec motors I am beating him again.
So as I see it a motor limit does not make it cheaper but spec motors do and it comes down to the driver and setup instead of who can pay the money and at the end of the day the lower the wind the more the maintenance especialy in TCs.
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