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Old 07-07-2004, 07:27 AM   #16
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I like motor limits. No matter what you do you're always at a disadvantage to the guy with the fatter wallet, unless you simply drive better. Specifying the same turn motor evens the field a little.
When I go to track I only take 2 motors, one to race, other as spare. I there were no motor limit I'd have to take at least 4 or 5, motors. Then if one failed I'd have to use one less powerful and change setup to fit the motor.
Timing the motors too much doesn't make sense to me, they get much hotter and therefore have less power at the end of the race, this power fade is often incorrectly blamed on the batteries.
Because of the motor limit, manufacturers have concentrated on 12 turn (and 10, especially in USA) with the results that almost all top 12 turn motors are actually more powerful than most 11 turns.
I'd rather see 8-10 minute races with 12 turn motors and >3000 mah cells than lower motor limit.
It could be fun to use F1 rules; If you have to change motor after qualifying you'll drop down 10 seats and have to start from the back.
More powerful motor can not win the race for you, but one wrong steering input can lose it for you.
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Old 07-07-2004, 08:22 AM   #17
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You have all repeated just what I have said.

If you over gear a 12 you will burn it.

If you over advance a 12 you will burn it.

If you overgear or over advance an 8 you will do nothing of the sort. You will just dump before the end of the race and look a rock ape. But it won't hurt your pocket.

I know that you guys writing are all experts and have been fiddling long enough to have found the safe limit with 12s, but what about all the new guys. Do you have to subject them to this, and put them off racing for ever.

I tell you we are speaking from experience. We have tried both and the NO LIMIT motor works out one hell of a lot cheaper. Talk to some of the top guys and see what they say. I have done, and they all agree that a limit causes more problems and expences.

What's the bet EFRA will be back to no limit just like most of the World in a couple of years.

Remember they tried a 12 turn limit at the Worlds in 98. I know. We were there. Have they tried it since? Of course not.

Besides, what other class apart from touring cars has a 12 turn limit? Off road 2WD is free. Off road 4WD is free. 1/12th is free.

It's got to go!
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Old 07-07-2004, 09:53 AM   #18
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Well Johnbull.
In My Humble Opinion
I don't think I repeated what you said.
If you overgear any motor, you'll burn it.
If you overadvance any motor, you'll burn it. Not just 12 turn motors.
I think new guys would learn faster how to gear ef they'd be limited to 12 turns. For beginner 12 turn gives ballastic speed. Do you want them to go even faster and demolish their cars in the first crash and put them of racing forever?
No motor limit demands top batteries, that is not cheaper racing. 12 turn motor can, if not overgeared or overadvanced, easily finish 5 minute race with couple of years old batteries.
EOR.
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Old 07-07-2004, 10:02 AM   #19
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I agree entirely and respect your opinion.

Just one point. We don't allow beginners to start with modified anyway. Our system requires a driver to start in stock, then graduate to super stock, then finally graduate to mod.

But even in super stock as soon as they start overgearing they start burning out motors.

Anyway. I'm just passing on our own many years of experience. People don't have to listen. I wish them all well anyway.
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Old 07-07-2004, 01:04 PM   #20
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I don't completely agree that 12 turn rule has stopped battery wars. Yes, on most tracks it has happened, but on fast tracks with good grip it's still quite easy to dump 3300's in 5 minutes. I don't want to think what it'd be like with less turns...

I like the motor limit. We have been using the EFRA 12t rule for 3-4 years. No problem with burning up motors, unless you make a mistake with gearing or timing yourself, but this can happen with _any_ motor.
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Old 07-07-2004, 02:27 PM   #21
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Come on all you South Island drivers, and you too Simon. It is about time you all pulled your heads in. If you want to go to Australia and race instead of supporting the sport locally then, .... see ya.
You are all just peeved that you basically lost out on every remit to do with mod that you put up. You need to think alot more about what you are submitting as remits. You are going to kill the sport in NZ and it is fragile enough as it is.

And that is all I have to say on that
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Old 07-07-2004, 02:49 PM   #22
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Well, I think it would be worth trying, and then we can find out for ourselves. I normally gear by runtime. If the battery still has heaps left in it after a run, I gear the motor up tooth, and just feather the throttle a bit more in the corners, but still keep the same speed in the corners, just less throttle. Seems to work for me pretty good, (the car setup is usually the one that needs the most work ). Didn't ixlr8nz run in the Reedy race at Halifax, with the 12 turn limit? I wonder what he thought of it?
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Old 07-07-2004, 03:01 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnbull

Besides, what other class apart from touring cars has a 12 turn limit? Off road 2WD is free. Off road 4WD is free. 1/12th is free.

It's got to go!
The reason touring car is the only class with turn limits is because it is the most demanding class on motors and batteries. Offroad and 1/12th scale have nowhere near the current load on the motors that TC's do. You can run the same motor 3 or 4 times in and offroad car or 1/12th scale and it will still perform better in its respective car than an 8 turn in a TC on it's 2nd run.
I'm not trying to say that motor limits are the answer to everyones problems, but I do think it solves more problems than it creates. Especially in areas where the temperature is very high. One example I can site is from the recent 2004 Reedy TC ROC in L.A.. In 2003, there was a 10 turn limit and this year there was none. In 2003, a few people initially blew motors because of trying to over-time or over-gear them but it all sorted out by race time. This year with no limit, most of the factory teams were trying to run 6, 7 and 8 turn motors. I saw many races in the invite class lost on the last straight because of severe motor fade from overheated motors. Pretty much the only team that didn't have this problem was Orion/Peak with there new version V2 endbells with smaller brushes and bigger brush tubes (which is not available to the public). In 2003 with the 10 turn limit, invite class came down to who drove better, not who's motor could last 5 minutes.
There is a learning curve for either method where motors may get destroyed, but with everyone running the same motors, you should be able to get enough help from fellow racers to shorten that time. That's my opinion.
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Old 07-07-2004, 03:35 PM   #24
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Well if theres a timing limit and a wind limit I think thats fair enough.

If you want to get technical, then simply suggest limiting final drive ratios so nobody gears the snot out of their motors

What I don't get it if you are overgearing the motors then why would it be faster? If you over gear wouldn't you loose out big time on the infield?
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Old 07-07-2004, 04:06 PM   #25
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Over or under mean they they are out of the ideal... 12's also have an ideal spot to gear.

No one is going to gain by putting 36 timing or gearing 4.5 if the motor runs better at 18 and 6.2

I don't get it.
The argument revolves around the notion that doing one EXAGERATED choice will produce results. It wont.

The same with any wind. If it's overgeared or undergeared the car won't be as IT SHOULD. So why would anyone persist in doing it? It wins races like that? Well, then it's probably not over or undergearing.


The limited ratio as a lot going against it. Some 12's like 5.9 others like 6.5 on the VERY same track.
How would you solve that?

I have motors that make 220W and 45000 rpm and others that do 225 and 41000 (Robi Dyno). Clearly they wont use the same ratio.
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Old 07-07-2004, 05:56 PM   #26
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I think if you want to burn up motors by overgearing/overtiming you can go right ahead, but I would think the majority of people who race modified would be switched on enough to realise it doesn't help, or maybe not
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Old 07-07-2004, 06:05 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by ixlr8nz
I think after one years racing the reality will show. I can almost garantee u that no south islanders will race at the electric nats. We usually travel together and if we are not happy about something then we will not go. We will go to aussie instead. I tried my best to defend the current rules at the agm but the people that had the votes had different ideas so it was hard to get anywhere really.

Mike
Boycotting the nationals will not prove a point, really with this attitude nobody will care if you aren't there. I agree with fatbear, if you'd rather race in Australia go right on ahead, nobody will miss you.
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Old 07-07-2004, 06:18 PM   #28
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Guys, don't do it. Grab a good 12, race with it and I'm sure you'll like it and in one year you'll look back and say that it wasn't such a big deal.

It will level the racing, it will become more fun to watch and more centered in skills than balistic power.

The same happened in our country and if we allow people to race any motor they want at club level, guess what motors they use?

If the fun is in racing, what does it matter if it is with a 12 or a 9? As long as it is fun and competitive rules can force me to use a 17 machine wound...I'll do it anyway.
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Old 07-07-2004, 06:29 PM   #29
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Antonio, just out of curiousity what testing equipment do they use to test if the motors are indeed 12t? They say they are designing some testing equipment here but if there is already equipment designed to test them in other countries then really theres no need to design our own equipment.
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Old 07-07-2004, 06:36 PM   #30
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We use an inductance meter and a 12 "should" give values equal or abovre 17.5 micro Henry (or mili... my memory fades)

You can find a lot of cheap digital multimeters that measure Inductance.

If by aby reason the value is below that, the motor is opened and inspected.
It should have the manufactirer stamp and the wind stamp on the armature.

Brands like Orion, Peak and Corally use another stamp on the armature. It says EFRA Spec.

The current crop of 12 (namely euro versions from Reedy and new Corally black) have inductance readings below 17.5, but they are clearly marked. Some racers don't like to open them, but that's life.

Teching the motors is very easy with the ind. meter. Just put the aligator clips on the brush shunts and slowly move the spur to get the highest reading just before the magnets make it go further.

Very simple and very clean. It works like a charm.

Everybody started to discuss how open this was to cheating but we never had a case in 3 years. Heck, they are going faster with the 12's now

update: here you have a couple of links
http://www.maplin.co.uk/products/mod...393&Products=1
and
http://www.maplin.co.uk/products/mod...moduleno=36440

You may ask - Where did that 17.5 number came from?
The EFRA rules say that motors should be verified by inductance measurement bu t gave no value for it.
So... I went fishing. And Big Jim told me that 17.5 was the value he tested for 12 motors he did for Europe. So it was a reference value for us and a very good help.
Anyway, with the current developments some motors are below that value, but with the meter, we tech more than half of them without the need to open them.
Hope it helps

Last edited by antoniop; 07-07-2004 at 06:44 PM.
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