Go Back  R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road
"Brushless" Racing-The Good, The Bad, The Ugly >

"Brushless" Racing-The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

"Brushless" Racing-The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Old 10-14-2010, 02:28 PM
  #1  
Tech Master
Thread Starter
iTrader: (28)
 
TAMAK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,974
Trader Rating: 28 (100%+)
Default "Brushless" Racing-The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Okay, Just so that we are not Hi-Jacking the "Silver Can" Thread. Lets Here it!!!
TAMAK is offline  
Old 10-14-2010, 03:06 PM
  #2  
Tech Master
iTrader: (26)
 
sportpak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Ft Wayne, IN
Posts: 1,314
Trader Rating: 26 (100%+)
Default

The whole brushless thing sort of blew up in our face.
I'd still never go back.
sportpak is offline  
Old 10-14-2010, 03:12 PM
  #3  
Tech Elite
 
sosidge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 3,998
Default

Originally Posted by TAMAK View Post
Okay, Just so that we are not Hi-Jacking the "Silver Can" Thread. Lets Here it!!!
Well it's easy...

(+) Virtually zero maintenance
(+) Superb performance

(-) Why-oh-why-oh-why are we trying to ruin it by turning it into software racing?
(-) ROAR missed a trick by not fixing the mechanical advance of stock motors - these have become the basis of the global rules. LRP and Novak releasing motors with 10 or 20 deg more advance than the competition is an unnecessary complication.
(-) Initial cost of an ESC and motor is generally higher than in the brushed days, although there are some very good value combos around as well.
sosidge is offline  
Old 10-14-2010, 03:27 PM
  #4  
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (37)
 
BCbud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 760
Trader Rating: 37 (100%+)
Default

Good day!

I realy like the hole brushless thing. My only problem I am having is finding out what internal timing different motors have. With the newer timing and turbo ESCs out there and not wanting to go over 60* total timming, this info is needed. Why is it sutch a seacret?????
BCbud is offline  
Old 10-14-2010, 05:00 PM
  #5  
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Christchurch, NZ
Posts: 1,063
Default

+ Little maintenance
+ High performance
+ MOST of the motor voo-doo tuning is gone (now it's software)

- People complaining about brushless not being fair because they don't understand it, but make little effort to learn
JR007 is offline  
Old 10-14-2010, 10:51 PM
  #6  
Tech Adept
 
JSeay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 151
Default

(+) Harder to get the "Cherry" motor.

(+) When comparing like systems, they are appear closer than the brished counterparts used to be.

(+/-) Lessened maintenance on the motor has left more time for you to tinker. YMMV on this one.

(-) The governing bodies (ROAR/IFMAR) specs on the stock motor from the timing aspect of the motor/speed controller combo is ineffective at best. The ability to alter timing to the levels it is now, the way it is done now was not thinkable to the average joe racer under the brushed mechanism, and the lack of clear guidance (rules) has left everyone to their own devices.

(-) The inability to stabilize on a "stock" motor hurts a lot of racing programs especially in the on road segment where the "power" is more evident across the board than in off road.
JSeay is offline  
Old 10-15-2010, 03:02 PM
  #7  
Tech Adept
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 160
Default

sosidge, you hit the nail on the head! I agree with everything you said, especially with regards to the upfront pricing. I have heard many say that it is worth it because of superior performance and lower long term maintenance, and while that may be true, to spend upwards of $300 for a brushless system that costs more than most cars is simply ridiculous!! And it is scaring many away from trying brushless, too expensive up front! Where I race only about one class use brushless, and when I ask others why they don't, I always get the same answer: "Too expensive up front cost". "Can't afford it". I'm betting this is going on at tracks all over the country.

The only manufacturer who seems to get it is Speed Passion with their Cirtix Stock Club Combo brushless system that sells for around $90 That's the one I'm planning on getting!
Enforcerman is offline  
Old 10-15-2010, 03:13 PM
  #8  
Company Representative
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 2,891
Default

Keep in mind, a 90.00 BL system is not comparable to a 300.00 BL system.

Several affordable Novak systems:

RMF Havoc 2S Club Brushless Combo - 17.5T

Havoc 2S / SS Pro Brushless System-- 25.5T VTA

Havoc 2S Sport Sensored Brushless System - 8.5
NovakTwo is offline  
Old 10-15-2010, 03:45 PM
  #9  
Tech Adept
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 160
Default

Novak Two, will the RMF Havoc 2S Club Brushless Combo 17.5 work with a 1S lipo if you use either the Novak 1S booster or the TQ Cells 1S booster? We race direct drive pan cars with 1S lipos.

Glad to see that Novak now has a sub-$100 brushless system. Fantastic!!
Enforcerman is offline  
Old 10-15-2010, 03:48 PM
  #10  
avs
Tech Master
iTrader: (2)
 
avs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,175
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

+ no more bushings
++ more importantly no more comm lathes.

is anything else really worse than before? people grumbling is a constant.

i suspect that this 'fixed timing panacea' being foisted on the community will only generate new battery and motor sales to get that little edge, but will do nothing to reduce the grumble volume.

how long before we see 'zapped' lipo cells for that new and improved extra voltage under load measured at 30amps or 60amps or whatever!

(vent turned off now)
avs is offline  
Old 10-15-2010, 03:52 PM
  #11  
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (37)
 
BCbud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 760
Trader Rating: 37 (100%+)
Default

Good day!

On the cost part , how mutch money would you spend on springs, brushes and armatures in the same time a brushless motor would last? Nevermind the time and the fact that you also need a com lathe to do the work.
BCbud is offline  
Old 10-15-2010, 03:59 PM
  #12  
Tech Elite
 
sosidge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 3,998
Default

Originally Posted by BCbud View Post
Good day!

On the cost part , how mutch money would you spend on springs, brushes and armatures in the same time a brushless motor would last? Nevermind the time and the fact that you also need a com lathe to do the work.
I don't think anyone would say that the long-term costs of staying competitive in brushed were low - but that is not the point.

The initial costs for a brushless system are (generally) very high. Pretty much double their brushed equivalents. And as much as a race-spec car. Whereas a usable brushed system is included for nothing in most Tamiya kits.

In my opinion, brushed will die completely on the day that Tamiya include a sensored brushless in the kits instead of the silvercan. It only took Tamiya 15 years to put an ESC in all their kits, so by my reckoning the silvercan will have its last rites in 2022!
sosidge is offline  
Old 10-15-2010, 04:04 PM
  #13  
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (37)
 
BCbud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 760
Trader Rating: 37 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by sosidge View Post
I don't think anyone would say that the long-term costs of staying competitive in brushed were low - but that is not the point.

The initial costs for a brushless system are (generally) very high. Pretty much double their brushed equivalents. And as much as a race-spec car. Whereas a usable brushed system is included for nothing in most Tamiya kits.

In my opinion, brushed will die completely on the day that Tamiya include a sensored brushless in the kits instead of the silvercan. It only took Tamiya 15 years to put an ESC in all their kits, so by my reckoning the silvercan will have its last rites in 2022!

Pay me now or pay me later, it would work out in the long run don't ya think?
BCbud is offline  
Old 10-15-2010, 04:23 PM
  #14  
Tech Adept
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Barbados
Posts: 214
Default

Long term cost!!! So much less than brushed.

Running brushless is so much cheaper in terms of running cost and maintenance time. This is really hard to explain to a new comer to the sport who never went through the ridiculously expensive days of running brushed motors fast and just sees the high up front costs of a brushless system. Try explaining comm lathes and break in voodoo to them and their eyes will glaze over.

With a sealed brushless motor (no holes in the can) maintenance is almost zero. Just clean and lube the bearings every couple months and you're good to go.

Brushless, tuneable ESCs (and LiPo runtimes) are what got me back into the sport after a 10 year break.

The brushless vs SC/brushed debate might as well be the carb vs EFI debate in NASCAR.
spongerX is offline  
Old 10-15-2010, 06:03 PM
  #15  
avs
Tech Master
iTrader: (2)
 
avs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,175
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by sosidge View Post
...
It only took Tamiya 15 years to put an ESC in all their kits, so by my reckoning the silvercan will have its last rites in 2022!
that is probably a good estimate, it may also be the correct timeframe for when their chassis will accept something other than a stick pack!
avs is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.