"Silvercan" Racing - The Good, The Bad, The Ugly
10-13-2010, 02:00 PM
#46
Granpa has a very valid observation.
When installed in a fixed gearing chassis, Mini is 20 tooth max, the 21.5 is slower than a silver can.
We found that out when brushless was becoming popular and that is when we thought that a 13.5 was equal to a 27 turn brushed motor and it was when geared equally.
Then it was discovered that brushless motors could be geared way higher than the brushed motors and then the 13.5 would destroy the 27 turn and run all day, everyday without any attention.
Gear it til it's too hot then back off or even better, add a couple fans and stay insanely fast.
That's when 17.5 became the comparable stock motor vs. the 27 turn stock.
Of course that got all F'd up with boost. Another story altogether.
With variable gearing we have already established that the 21.5 and the silver cans will compete with each other to an extent.
Assuming you have your silver can pretty dialed and keep it cleaned, prepped and cool with fans etc. etc.etc...(not for everyone obviously but can be considered more cost effective to a point I guess).
E Z/lazy way to compete is to kick for brushless no boost (your old esc).
Used brushless motors are about $40 for the top names, Hong Kong combo is around $80 new.
The 17.5 may be the comparable option to be run along side the silvercans in Mini or fixed gear classes. To be determined.
When installed in a fixed gearing chassis, Mini is 20 tooth max, the 21.5 is slower than a silver can.
We found that out when brushless was becoming popular and that is when we thought that a 13.5 was equal to a 27 turn brushed motor and it was when geared equally.
Then it was discovered that brushless motors could be geared way higher than the brushed motors and then the 13.5 would destroy the 27 turn and run all day, everyday without any attention.
Gear it til it's too hot then back off or even better, add a couple fans and stay insanely fast.
That's when 17.5 became the comparable stock motor vs. the 27 turn stock.
Of course that got all F'd up with boost. Another story altogether.
With variable gearing we have already established that the 21.5 and the silver cans will compete with each other to an extent.
Assuming you have your silver can pretty dialed and keep it cleaned, prepped and cool with fans etc. etc.etc...(not for everyone obviously but can be considered more cost effective to a point I guess).
E Z/lazy way to compete is to kick for brushless no boost (your old esc).
Used brushless motors are about $40 for the top names, Hong Kong combo is around $80 new.
The 17.5 may be the comparable option to be run along side the silvercans in Mini or fixed gear classes. To be determined.
10-13-2010, 03:57 PM
#47
That's great. Unfortunately, in my experience I've never seen the "gentleman's agreement" to leave the motors alone last more than a few races. People just can't resist...
I won't race silver cans anymore, nor can I recommend them to newbies with a clear conscience, and that's a shame.
To me, the solution is simple -- vote with your feet.
If you don't like silver can racing, don't race it! It will die a natural death, or the 2-3 die-hards who are into playing with the motors can continue to race each other forever in their bubble.
There's a 21.5 in my F1 and a 21.5 in my FF03 and I'm not going back.
I won't race silver cans anymore, nor can I recommend them to newbies with a clear conscience, and that's a shame.
To me, the solution is simple -- vote with your feet.
If you don't like silver can racing, don't race it! It will die a natural death, or the 2-3 die-hards who are into playing with the motors can continue to race each other forever in their bubble.
There's a 21.5 in my F1 and a 21.5 in my FF03 and I'm not going back.
Well maybe one small point of disagreement. I know a lot of the guys that rework the silvercan and can tell you almost all are gentlemen and are people most would respect. None live in a "bubble" and are aware of most of the ponts you bring up. In fact some even run brushless motors. Most are really smart tho, and I'm sure that they will in time figure out how to make them go faster. Oh well, so much for equal motors.
By the way, who makes the fastest and best 21.5? Who makes the best esc? What will it cost me and will it fit in my new FF03? Please remember that I'm on a limited budget and really can't afford buying a system just to try out. Also, don't want to buy a cheap system that will need replacement soon. My present esc is a Novak GT7 of unknown vintage and I do wear out 2-3 Silvercans each year and would like to keep the motor budget under the $40-50 it is now. Thanx for any help you all can provide
10-13-2010, 04:56 PM
#48
Tech Adept
gosh, i've been racing toy cars in parking lots for bowling trophies now for 31 years....... hard to believe its been that long.
lots of changes in manufacturers, batteries, motors, electronics, chassis, tires, tracks, drivers, and underwear.
what has remained constant however, is the complaining..... it just wouldn't be racing without it, i guess.
if one feels that one is not fast enough, better make some changes..... either quit racing, -- or use new tires every run, or change inserts, or buy titanium screws, or gear up and run 2 hi velocity fans, or learn about roll center, toe, camber, caster, droop, axle/kingpin alignment, wt balance, wheelbase, rideheight, aero, transmitter adjustment, and yes -- tweaking motors. it really doesnt matter whether they are igarashi, yokomo, mabuchi, epic, brushless, or pratt & whitney j57's.---
people will figure out a way to make them faster...
and others will complain. (flame suit on)
lots of changes in manufacturers, batteries, motors, electronics, chassis, tires, tracks, drivers, and underwear.
what has remained constant however, is the complaining..... it just wouldn't be racing without it, i guess.
if one feels that one is not fast enough, better make some changes..... either quit racing, -- or use new tires every run, or change inserts, or buy titanium screws, or gear up and run 2 hi velocity fans, or learn about roll center, toe, camber, caster, droop, axle/kingpin alignment, wt balance, wheelbase, rideheight, aero, transmitter adjustment, and yes -- tweaking motors. it really doesnt matter whether they are igarashi, yokomo, mabuchi, epic, brushless, or pratt & whitney j57's.---
people will figure out a way to make them faster...
and others will complain. (flame suit on)
10-13-2010, 05:12 PM
#49
When some locals showed up with your 50 dollar silvercans. I stopped running silvercan. Not a flame just facts. Now we have guys around here with zappers. I'll be pushing for 25.5 for next years rules package
10-13-2010, 05:51 PM
#51
Tech Adept
bruce
10-13-2010, 08:16 PM
#52
Tech Elite
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...and while we're at it, let's be clear here: we sell Red Dot motors in MANY different configurations:
* When the rules call for a max of 12.5K, that's what we run and what we sell
* When the rules call for a max of 13.5K, that's what we run and what we sell
* When the rules call for 1.3 amps at 2 volts, that's what we run and what we sell
* When we supply 15K motors for race directors all over the world so they can run controlled handout series and want motors that will last for a couple of seasons, that's what we sell
When we read the rules and there are no specific limits, well...then we go racin'
* When the rules call for a max of 12.5K, that's what we run and what we sell
* When the rules call for a max of 13.5K, that's what we run and what we sell
* When the rules call for 1.3 amps at 2 volts, that's what we run and what we sell
* When we supply 15K motors for race directors all over the world so they can run controlled handout series and want motors that will last for a couple of seasons, that's what we sell
When we read the rules and there are no specific limits, well...then we go racin'
10-13-2010, 08:19 PM
#53
-- they are not my 50 dollar silver cans. you have me confused with Doug Mertes, the "RC car DR". he is the well-known purveyor of "Red Dot Motors" and one of the founding members of the "International Playboy Driving Team". i don't sell motors for profit...... i race because its fun. my handle is "Doc" because that's what my fellow sqadron mates nick-named me during my years as a Naval Aviator. subsequently, i was fortunate enough to be accepted to medical school and i am a board-certified urgent care MD. perhaps i should change my handle to "Real Doc", eh?
bruce
bruce
peace.
10-13-2010, 08:21 PM
#54
...and while we're at it, let's be clear here: we sell Red Dot motors in MANY different configurations:
* When the rules call for a max of 12.5K, that's what we run and what we sell
* When the rules call for a max of 13.5K, that's what we run and what we sell
* When the rules call for 1.3 amps at 2 volts, that's what we run and what we sell
* When we supply 15K motors for race directors all over the world so they can run controlled handout series and want motors that will last for a couple of seasons, that's what we sell
When we read the rules and there are no specific limits, well...then we go racin'
* When the rules call for a max of 12.5K, that's what we run and what we sell
* When the rules call for a max of 13.5K, that's what we run and what we sell
* When the rules call for 1.3 amps at 2 volts, that's what we run and what we sell
* When we supply 15K motors for race directors all over the world so they can run controlled handout series and want motors that will last for a couple of seasons, that's what we sell
When we read the rules and there are no specific limits, well...then we go racin'
yep. and I want no part of it.
10-13-2010, 09:07 PM
#56
Tech Master
iTrader: (2)
Wow I checked the link out thinking it would be a few posts and it is a who's who of SC racers!
The Good - Having my racing motors that come off track at 140F.
The Bad - Spending over 4 years in trial and error on these motors.
The Ugly - Same variety of SC view points since the dawn of man.
To me SC was a way to keep costs down. My 1st year racing them, went that way. The 2nd year went something like pointing fingers, labeling cheater motors and complaining about how unfair it was. After seeing the light and realizing there is no rule for bashing, cranking, kicking, stomping, cutting, zapping, throwing, freezing and flushing these motors, I have been intrigued by the science behind them.
IMO usually the guys that complain the most about this class have spent the least amount of work on it with their motors, chassis, ESC, batteries, etc. If it is not like a video game where immediate results are granted, there must be something wrong with the class and should be trashed. So we move into BL where just as many mods are allowed like SC. Then again that motor is unfair, that capacitor is not allowed, that ESC needs to be limited. What is the point?
Like stated earlier, you don't have to race this class and your feet can decide the survivability of this class. I have been fortunate to race these "turds" year round and couldn't be happier. I also run BL so not to be labeled ignorant on that Tech.
and Grandpa Rock ON! you crack me up.
The Good - Having my racing motors that come off track at 140F.
The Bad - Spending over 4 years in trial and error on these motors.
The Ugly - Same variety of SC view points since the dawn of man.
To me SC was a way to keep costs down. My 1st year racing them, went that way. The 2nd year went something like pointing fingers, labeling cheater motors and complaining about how unfair it was. After seeing the light and realizing there is no rule for bashing, cranking, kicking, stomping, cutting, zapping, throwing, freezing and flushing these motors, I have been intrigued by the science behind them.
IMO usually the guys that complain the most about this class have spent the least amount of work on it with their motors, chassis, ESC, batteries, etc. If it is not like a video game where immediate results are granted, there must be something wrong with the class and should be trashed. So we move into BL where just as many mods are allowed like SC. Then again that motor is unfair, that capacitor is not allowed, that ESC needs to be limited. What is the point?
Like stated earlier, you don't have to race this class and your feet can decide the survivability of this class. I have been fortunate to race these "turds" year round and couldn't be happier. I also run BL so not to be labeled ignorant on that Tech.
and Grandpa Rock ON! you crack me up.
10-13-2010, 09:33 PM
#57
gosh, i've been racing toy cars in parking lots for bowling trophies now for 31 years....... hard to believe its been that long.
lots of changes in manufacturers, batteries, motors, electronics, chassis, tires, tracks, drivers, and underwear.
what has remained constant however, is the complaining..... it just wouldn't be racing without it, i guess.
if one feels that one is not fast enough, better make some changes..... either quit racing, -- or use new tires every run, or change inserts, or buy titanium screws, or gear up and run 2 hi velocity fans, or learn about roll center, toe, camber, caster, droop, axle/kingpin alignment, wt balance, wheelbase, rideheight, aero, transmitter adjustment, and yes -- tweaking motors. it really doesnt matter whether they are igarashi, yokomo, mabuchi, epic, brushless, or pratt & whitney j57's.---
people will figure out a way to make them faster...
and others will complain. (flame suit on)
lots of changes in manufacturers, batteries, motors, electronics, chassis, tires, tracks, drivers, and underwear.
what has remained constant however, is the complaining..... it just wouldn't be racing without it, i guess.
if one feels that one is not fast enough, better make some changes..... either quit racing, -- or use new tires every run, or change inserts, or buy titanium screws, or gear up and run 2 hi velocity fans, or learn about roll center, toe, camber, caster, droop, axle/kingpin alignment, wt balance, wheelbase, rideheight, aero, transmitter adjustment, and yes -- tweaking motors. it really doesnt matter whether they are igarashi, yokomo, mabuchi, epic, brushless, or pratt & whitney j57's.---
people will figure out a way to make them faster...
and others will complain. (flame suit on)
10-13-2010, 10:01 PM
#58
Wow I checked the link out thinking it would be a few posts and it is a who's who of SC racers!
The Good - Having my racing motors that come off track at 140F.
The Bad - Spending over 4 years in trial and error on these motors.
The Ugly - Same variety of SC view points since the dawn of man.
To me SC was a way to keep costs down. My 1st year racing them, went that way. The 2nd year went something like pointing fingers, labeling cheater motors and complaining about how unfair it was. After seeing the light and realizing there is no rule for bashing, cranking, kicking, stomping, cutting, zapping, throwing, freezing and flushing these motors, I have been intrigued by the science behind them.
IMO usually the guys that complain the most about this class have spent the least amount of work on it with their motors, chassis, ESC, batteries, etc. If it is not like a video game where immediate results are granted, there must be something wrong with the class and should be trashed. So we move into BL where just as many mods are allowed like SC. Then again that motor is unfair, that capacitor is not allowed, that ESC needs to be limited. What is the point?
Like stated earlier, you don't have to race this class and your feet can decide the survivability of this class. I have been fortunate to race these "turds" year round and couldn't be happier. I also run BL so not to be labeled ignorant on that Tech.
and Grandpa Rock ON! you crack me up.
The Good - Having my racing motors that come off track at 140F.
The Bad - Spending over 4 years in trial and error on these motors.
The Ugly - Same variety of SC view points since the dawn of man.
To me SC was a way to keep costs down. My 1st year racing them, went that way. The 2nd year went something like pointing fingers, labeling cheater motors and complaining about how unfair it was. After seeing the light and realizing there is no rule for bashing, cranking, kicking, stomping, cutting, zapping, throwing, freezing and flushing these motors, I have been intrigued by the science behind them.
IMO usually the guys that complain the most about this class have spent the least amount of work on it with their motors, chassis, ESC, batteries, etc. If it is not like a video game where immediate results are granted, there must be something wrong with the class and should be trashed. So we move into BL where just as many mods are allowed like SC. Then again that motor is unfair, that capacitor is not allowed, that ESC needs to be limited. What is the point?
Like stated earlier, you don't have to race this class and your feet can decide the survivability of this class. I have been fortunate to race these "turds" year round and couldn't be happier. I also run BL so not to be labeled ignorant on that Tech.
and Grandpa Rock ON! you crack me up.
After like 3 or 4 years of brushless motors, nobody seems to get it. The only reason everything is going faster is the ESCs. If you have a Trinity Duo, it's still just as fast as the Duo2 or the LRP X12 or the Novak Ballistic, even though they are newer models. A no timing class works fine with a 4 year old GTB or one of the new SpeedPassion club escs.
What I don't like is that this is all supposed to be to keep costs down for new people. Personally I don't care. I have a TurboDyno, and a buttload of motors I have destroyed trying stuff. Most people do not. That is what I don't like. Especially when these motors were outmoded when open endbell stuff came out in the 80's.
10-13-2010, 10:49 PM
#59
Promised myself that I wouldn't say anything else, until I read your post. Pete, you are absolutely 100% right and I can't disagree with a single point you brought up. I'm glad you have found peace in your decision to run 21.5s in your cars and trash can your silvercans and rejoice for you. I too agree that these silvercans are old tech and frankly there is no new stuff being introduced to run brushed motors. In time, as you say, it will die out. The only problem is that many of the people posting here run the TCS races and Tamiya does specify the silvercan in certain classes. And as you say, this too at some point come to an end. Rumor and fact support that Tamiya is looking into a brushless system of their own and I'm sure will be mandated for their races. That should open up a whole series of "new" things to discuss.
Well maybe one small point of disagreement. I know a lot of the guys that rework the silvercan and can tell you almost all are gentlemen and are people most would respect. None live in a "bubble" and are aware of most of the ponts you bring up. In fact some even run brushless motors. Most are really smart tho, and I'm sure that they will in time figure out how to make them go faster. Oh well, so much for equal motors.
By the way, who makes the fastest and best 21.5? Who makes the best esc? What will it cost me and will it fit in my new FF03? Please remember that I'm on a limited budget and really can't afford buying a system just to try out. Also, don't want to buy a cheap system that will need replacement soon. My present esc is a Novak GT7 of unknown vintage and I do wear out 2-3 Silvercans each year and would like to keep the motor budget under the $40-50 it is now. Thanx for any help you all can provide
Well maybe one small point of disagreement. I know a lot of the guys that rework the silvercan and can tell you almost all are gentlemen and are people most would respect. None live in a "bubble" and are aware of most of the ponts you bring up. In fact some even run brushless motors. Most are really smart tho, and I'm sure that they will in time figure out how to make them go faster. Oh well, so much for equal motors.
By the way, who makes the fastest and best 21.5? Who makes the best esc? What will it cost me and will it fit in my new FF03? Please remember that I'm on a limited budget and really can't afford buying a system just to try out. Also, don't want to buy a cheap system that will need replacement soon. My present esc is a Novak GT7 of unknown vintage and I do wear out 2-3 Silvercans each year and would like to keep the motor budget under the $40-50 it is now. Thanx for any help you all can provide
I should have just stuck with the line, "if you don't like silver can racing, don't race it!" and left it right there.
