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Old 10-14-2010, 03:05 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by kyle133 View Post
hmmm lets see, run a johnson in a bath of chemicals i have to consult with the government to get. might light the bath on fire, or even worse my house, and waste my life away in basement squeezing 200 more rpms out of this drill motor...

or buy a 21.5, put it in my car, be competitive and HAVE FUN!.....


some people just dont think..
+1 for 21.5, zero timing esc.
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Old 10-14-2010, 03:22 PM   #77
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Just mix em and let everyone choose.

21.5 no boost is perfect with the tuned silver cans, you'll see.
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Old 10-14-2010, 03:39 PM   #78
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Hold those brushless thoughts. I'm currently massaging my silver cans. Water dippen, magnetizing, cranking, polishing... Arrgh, anyone has an extra 21.5 to trade with my extra 17.5? Oh wait, Hebiki, do you still have that Magneto machine from 2005 Nats?
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Old 10-14-2010, 05:26 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by kyle133 View Post
hmmm lets see, run a johnson in a bath of chemicals i have to consult with the government to get. might light the bath on fire, or even worse my house, and waste my life away in basement squeezing 200 more rpms out of this drill motor...

or buy a 21.5, put it in my car, be competitive and HAVE FUN!.....


some people just dont think..
Drill motor! Now thats funny
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Old 10-14-2010, 06:20 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by kyle133 View Post
hmmm lets see, run a johnson in a bath of chemicals i have to consult with the government to get. might light the bath on fire, or even worse my house, and waste my life away in basement squeezing 200 more rpms out of this drill motor...

or buy a 21.5, put it in my car, be competitive and HAVE FUN!.....


some people just dont think..
No, not run it in a bath, "special comm drops" with mercury in them...

I did 5 of them a few years back and decided it was not worth it....

BTW Jewelers and dentists tools work wonders on these comms too.....
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Old 10-14-2010, 06:37 PM   #81
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I just took the drive motor out of an old CD player, hmm, I wonder... Where's those double "A" batteries.
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Old 10-14-2010, 08:59 PM   #82
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More fuel...

I can take a Tamiya silver can (at 4 amps rpms at 12,000) do a little tweaking and get around 16,000 plus rpms. The motor is not taken apart, just a little special breaking method using some special (and now illegal) chemicals and tools.

Of course the motor will only last 15-20 runs and it will melt down to a nice smelly mess but for the 8 to 10 runs it goes like the bat out of hell.

Do you think a race director or Tech would have a problem with it?

I'm betting yep.... THats why I don't bother to do it... Its not worth the time or trouble...
That's really very interesting and I can fully understand why you gave up on the silvercans. It really seems like a lot of time and effort to get a 16k motor that is only good for 15-20 runs. You made a wise decision. I certainly wouldn't go through all that time, trouble and risk of playing with chemicals so hazardous as to be banned.

Also interesting that you were working with 12k motors that pulled 4 amps. I've never seen a silvercan that pulled more than 1.2 or 1.3 amps. Almost all are in the 1.0 amp range. Even a fully tuned Red Dot is closer to 2 amps than 4. Also, they'll usually do 18-20k and last for many weekends of racing. Yep, wise decision.

Even more interesting ---- you wouldn't just be posting this to yank our chains, would you???????
BS is fine and fun, just don't stand in it. Really enjoyed the posts and they really cracked me up.
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Old 10-14-2010, 09:42 PM   #83
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The good of SC racing is that the cost of entry is significantly lower than other forms of electronics currently available.

The bad is that the accompanying technology is at the end of it's life, this makes for a bleak future as other technologies come to the forefront, those that enjoy this aspect of the hobby will have a harder time finding the fun in it as they transition.

The ugly is that those that don't enjoy the "tinkering" side of SC find the obsessive need to bash those that do, and insist in absolute terms that their system(s) is somehow "fair" or the others are somehow cheating because the system is not as simple as plug and play to be "fast".

For the record, I think that brushless technology is the right answer. If I could find a reasonably priced 21.5 system I would have one to go along with my current 17.5 system. However, I don't think that those of us who currently enjoy the brushless system and the benefits we get from it should be the ones to throw stones in glass houses.

It was not too long ago that the purveyors of the brushless systems said that the equivalent motor was 13.5, now we are talking 21.5 as the equivalent for stock, because 17.5 is now too fast? Does that mean that we should actually consider 25.5 for SC as the SC system were/are slower comparatively to the other brushed system (CO27/MONSTER/PK2) available at the height of brushed technology which is what stock was actually compared to?

Ultimately, not a lot of confidence has been inspired by the brushless camp in what is truly equivalent between brushed and brushless systems at this point. The technology is new to on road comparatively to SC, and some amount tolerance and respect is due to racers on both sides of this issue.

What I would suggest to those that want to run their brushless systems is that instead of insisting that SC be done away with and replaced with the brushless systems, that you petition their local racing establishments to allow for the use of the 21.5 system alongside the SC system in whatever class they are running it in. If there is enough true interest at a local venue then I cant image why a race promoter would not at least consider the inclusion of the system especially considering that they will eventually have to address it.
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Old 10-14-2010, 10:59 PM   #84
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T
It was not too long ago that the purveyors of the brushless systems said that the equivalent motor was 13.5, now we are talking 21.5 as the equivalent for stock, because 17.5 is now too fast? Does that mean that we should actually consider 25.5 for SC as the SC system were/are slower comparatively to the other brushed system (CO27/MONSTER/PK2) available at the height of brushed technology which is what stock was actually compared to?

Ultimately, not a lot of confidence has been inspired by the brushless camp in what is truly equivalent between brushed and brushless systems at this point. The technology is new to on road comparatively to SC, and some amount tolerance and respect is due to racers on both sides of this issue.

What I would suggest to those that want to run their brushless systems is that instead of insisting that SC be done away with and replaced with the brushless systems, that you petition their local racing establishments to allow for the use of the 21.5 system alongside the SC system in whatever class they are running it in. If there is enough true interest at a local venue then I cant image why a race promoter would not at least consider the inclusion of the system especially considering that they will eventually have to address it.
The 17.5 BL (geared up correctly) is comparable to the 27 brushed motor, before boost.

13.5 was the equal until we learned how to gear them way up.

21.5 is comparable to the silver cans that go unchecked but quicker than the average box stock silver.
As we have been saying, these run really well together in F1 so it has been tested and proven as acceptable.

25.5 may be comparable to the bone stock silvers at best but will get smoked by a heated SC. Not the hot ticket but could be the perfect brushless to be allowed in the controlled silver can class.

Still think the main issue with the silvercan racing is when it is silver can only and it's not controlled, there is the huge variation in horsepower that just shuts too many average racers down before the race even starts.

Include the 21.5 and the average racer can run with competitive speeds and focus on setup and driving.
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Old 10-14-2010, 11:15 PM   #85
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Craig,

I understand your point however, I don't know that "tested" in F1 is enough empirical data to conclusively state that it is comparable in every situation?

That is what initally happened to 13.5 and 17.5 as the systems became more common people figure out how to "gear up", and once it got boosted it went out of control. I would be concerned that the limited scope that has been applied to 21.5 as a power system to date across all forms of racing makes it a hard sell to rubber stamp it as the "gold standard" for silver can replacement. What are we gonna do when a "fast guy" smokes everyone with a 21.5 are we going to be back here saying that is too fast that we should have used the 25.5?

I have followed your posts in the FF03 and Tamiya track thread and understand how you have come to your point of view. I would like to see the 21.5 system be allowed to run side by side with SC to allow the "empirical data" to be gathered that is needed to get to the right answer as well as to validate what you have said as I think you are 95% correct.

James
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Old 10-14-2010, 11:39 PM   #86
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I have run my 21.5 basic system, no boost of course, at Tamiya along side some hot silver in my FF03.

Although not absolutely conclusive, I can assure you that it was competitive and at the same time was not the fastest.

It might be reasonable to assume that the difference between our direct drive F1s and our gearbox FF03s when using the same motor combos would still be relatively compatible.

Let's get to runnin em and see what the top dogs end up showing us.

If 25.5 gets the nod, we will still need to check the silver cans to keep it close.
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Old 10-14-2010, 11:55 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by kyle133 View Post
hmmm lets see, run a johnson in a bath of chemicals i have to consult with the government to get. might light the bath on fire, or even worse my house, and waste my life away in basement squeezing 200 more rpms out of this drill motor...

or buy a 21.5, put it in my car, be competitive and HAVE FUN!.....


some people just dont think..
Mate I am all for brushless but alot of ppl still love the johnson motor.

If they still make them and sell them there is always going to be a spot on the racing scene for them....
I am all for new and old users to use these engines as its a great way to learn what electric racing is all about and very forgiving when it comes to being overgeared and undergeared plus its not hard on the electronics or the cars.....
Just my 2 cents
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Old 10-15-2010, 07:25 AM   #88
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That's really very interesting and I can fully understand why you gave up on the silvercans. It really seems like a lot of time and effort to get a 16k motor that is only good for 15-20 runs. You made a wise decision. I certainly wouldn't go through all that time, trouble and risk of playing with chemicals so hazardous as to be banned.

Also interesting that you were working with 12k motors that pulled 4 amps. I've never seen a silvercan that pulled more than 1.2 or 1.3 amps. Almost all are in the 1.0 amp range. Even a fully tuned Red Dot is closer to 2 amps than 4. Also, they'll usually do 18-20k and last for many weekends of racing. Yep, wise decision.

Even more interesting ---- you wouldn't just be posting this to yank our chains, would you???????
BS is fine and fun, just don't stand in it. Really enjoyed the posts and they really cracked me up.
No, not pulling anyone chains, my father-in-law was a machinist for GE in Fitchburg, MA that producted Jet turbine engines and they used a lot of toxic chemicals making those for the military. He died before I married her and hos old workshop was filled with old tools and stuff. I mis-spoke, I broke them in at 4 volts (old Integy dyno tester) and it would draw about 2.2 amps and got up the more it ran. Racers hace seen me smoke more than 1 moter ,,,,, hehehehe....
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Old 10-15-2010, 07:29 AM   #89
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At the C (HobbytownUSa) in Frederick, MD we run a class called Senior Spec which runs silver cans. The motors are supplied by Ray K and rccardr. Its a blind draw and every motor is tested and are dyno'd to make sure they are almost exactly the same. No cheater motors allowed which makes great close racing...
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Old 10-15-2010, 02:19 PM   #90
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[QUOTE=reenmachine;8071385]I hear your other points 100%. It could be argued, however, that you haven't heard the above statement because it would be a really, really hard argument to make. The motors really are better in pretty much every respect except for price, and the economies of scale are bringing prices down now that brushless is totally mainstream (e.g. Cirtix). It would also be a valid point that even conventional brushless motors are in fact less expensive over time due to the motor's longevity and lack of required replacement parts & maintenance.. QUOTE]

Pete, can't argue those points at all. Brushless motors are far superior to the silvercan in both quality, performance and longevity. Comparing 21st century technology to early 20th century technology is idiotic. Not the point of my post at all ----- just badly worded and speaks more to my poor wordsmithing than the point I was trying to make.

The point being that none of the SC posts were saying that brushless motor advocates were, in effect, calling you idiots, for liking all that the new technology provides. I know and most of "us" know, the arguments you've forwarded are true and valid. What I was mainly trying to point out is that some of enjoy SC racing. I enjoy the "tinkering and fussing" with these relics from the past. That you don't is a personal choice. However, some, not you, seem to be irritated with the fact some of us do not care to run brushless motors. Actually insist that we run Brushless motors in what have traditionally been silvercan classes.

For example, I drive a Toyota Matrix and my wife has an Avalon. Both nice cars, reliable, maintenance free, and perform well. In my youth, it was my older sisters 36 Ford coupe and my buddies 32 Ford hiboy. Do I prefer the 36 or 32 to my present Matrix??? Definately yes. Practically, no. But my choice.

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No, not pulling anyone chains, my father-in-law was a machinist for GE in Fitchburg, MA that producted Jet turbine engines and they used a lot of toxic chemicals making those for the military. He died before I married her and hos old workshop was filled with old tools and stuff. I mis-spoke, I broke them in at 4 volts (old Integy dyno tester) and it would draw about 2.2 amps and got up the more it ran. Racers hace seen me smoke more than 1 moter ,,,,, hehehehe....
Sorry Nova. Slid by the fact that you were talking about 5 or 6 years ago. Guys were doing that sort of stuff then, but things have changed a bit. Since your running one the Spec Red Dots, you know that at the present time we can tune to whatever rpm you want, within limits. Again, my apologies. Jumped to the conclusion that you were some brushless guy yanking everyones chain.
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