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Old 10-14-2010, 05:55 AM   #61
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The point of the hobby (IMO) is tuning and tinkering. There's no getting away from that.
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Old 10-14-2010, 09:23 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by reenmachine View Post
I apologize for my tone -- I didn't mean to sound condescending toward SC fanatics. There definitely is an art and science to what you do and it took a lot of hard work to get there.

I should have just stuck with the line, "if you don't like silver can racing, don't race it!" and left it right there.
No need to apologize Pete. You're one of the "good guys" in my book.. You and I are just like everyone else and just get a little "excited" once in awhile.


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By the way, who makes the fastest and best 21.5? Who makes the best esc? What will it cost me and will it fit in my new FF03? Please remember that I'm on a limited budget and really can't afford buying a system just to try out. Also, don't want to buy a cheap system that will need replacement soon. My present esc is a Novak GT7 of unknown vintage and I do wear out 2-3 Silvercans each year and would like to keep the motor budget under the $40-50 it is now. Thanx for any help you all can provide
Please, this wasn't sarcasm. I know next to nothing about brushless motors and am planning on using a 21.5 if it fits the budget. Frankly, they terrify me. People come to the track with lap top computers and the lingo they converse in sounds like Greek to me. What's a turbo or tubo and what damned blinking light?? What the f--- is the computer for. Pete, this isn't aimed at you, but there is a certain elitism about them. You don't dare ask the above type questions at the track cause you will receive the brush off, be treated like an idiot or get a total snow job. Yeah, I know, why post it here so that everyone knows you're an idiot ------ about brushless motors. Well maybe a few other things also------ like women, politics and religion.
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Old 10-14-2010, 09:34 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by TenzoR View Post
The point of the hobby (IMO) is tuning and tinkering. There's no getting away from that.
+1

I used to clean my brushed stock motor after every race at one point, always looking for that extra bit of performance, just like the next guy...
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Old 10-14-2010, 10:36 AM   #64
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Please, this wasn't sarcasm. I know next to nothing about brushless motors and am planning on using a 21.5 if it fits the budget. Frankly, they terrify me. People come to the track with lap top computers and the lingo they converse in sounds like Greek to me. What's a turbo or tubo and what damned blinking light?? What the f--- is the computer for. Pete, this isn't aimed at you, but there is a certain elitism about them. You don't dare ask the above type questions at the track cause you will receive the brush off, be treated like an idiot or get a total snow job. Yeah, I know, why post it here so that everyone knows you're an idiot ------ about brushless motors. Well maybe a few other things also------ like women, politics and religion.
Maybe I'm lucky that I just started in this hobby and know almost nothing about brushed motors, but had to learn quite a bit about setting up brushless motors and adjusting the settings with a computer. Being a computer geek for a living probably helps.

It sucks that the guys at your track are a-holes that won't take the time to explain it all to you. I don't think it's any more complicated than other aspects of setting up a car right. Just one more thing to learn. If you are going to be running that 21.5 with zero timing then that is about as simple as it gets. You just need to figure out the right gearing (usually around 3.5-4.2 FDR I think)

If you will be running in an open ESC class, then you use a computer to adjust the timing to get the most performance.

On a brushless motor, the rotor is a magnet and the windings are on the outside. The ESC controls electromagnetic fields that pulse at specific timed moments to spin the rotor. As the RPM increases, the ideal location of those fields shifts slightly, so in order to get the most out of the motor, you adjust the timing by a certain number of degrees over a specified RPM range. "Turbo" is additional timing that is added when at full throttle. Different companies give different names to some of these functions (supercharger, cheat mode, etc.)

Most people just keep adding timing and keep checking motor temps. If it starts to get too hot too fast, then they back off the settings a little bit, add fans or drop a tooth or 2 on the pinion.

That's the basics as I've come to understand them. Of course there is a lot of misinformation out there and I am just a newb, so I could be wrong about some things. If I am, I hope someone would be kind enough to correct me.
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Old 10-14-2010, 10:39 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Granpa View Post
Please, this wasn't sarcasm. I know next to nothing about brushless motors and am planning on using a 21.5 if it fits the budget. Frankly, they terrify me. People come to the track with lap top computers and the lingo they converse in sounds like Greek to me. What's a turbo or tubo and what damned blinking light?? What the f--- is the computer for. Pete, this isn't aimed at you, but there is a certain elitism about them. You don't dare ask the above type questions at the track cause you will receive the brush off, be treated like an idiot or get a total snow job. Yeah, I know, why post it here so that everyone knows you're an idiot ------ about brushless motors. Well maybe a few other things also------ like women, politics and religion.
Novak's GTB, the Havok series, the old XBR, SpeedPassion's Cirtix Club Spec, LRP's Ai Runner - all of those are brushless speed controls with no timing advancement capabilities. No computer needed. They are a lot like a good brush esc, and are probably less complicated to fool with than a KO VFS-1.

The laptops are for the Tekins and other programmable timing advance ESCs. They also should not be in the conversation when you are talking about replacing silver can motors. Most of those ESCs offer a "spec" mode (your blinking light), but there have already been problems with that. They are also a lot more expensive than the non programmable ESCs.
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Old 10-14-2010, 10:50 AM   #66
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One of my favorite Quotes, "Theres nothing stock about a stock car".
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Old 10-14-2010, 11:29 AM   #67
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One of my favorite Quotes, "Theres nothing stock about a stock car".
True that but, everything is "spec" on a stock car.
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Old 10-14-2010, 11:58 AM   #68
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And from the same movie "Tires is what wins a race"
And that holds true to a point in RC also. You can have all the SC tuning you want, but if you can't make your car ride a corner, it's all for nought
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Old 10-14-2010, 12:28 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Granpa View Post
No need to apologize Pete. You're one of the "good guys" in my book.. You and I are just like everyone else and just get a little "excited" once in awhile.




Please, this wasn't sarcasm. I know next to nothing about brushless motors and am planning on using a 21.5 if it fits the budget. Frankly, they terrify me. People come to the track with lap top computers and the lingo they converse in sounds like Greek to me. What's a turbo or tubo and what damned blinking light?? What the f--- is the computer for. Pete, this isn't aimed at you, but there is a certain elitism about them. You don't dare ask the above type questions at the track cause you will receive the brush off, be treated like an idiot or get a total snow job. Yeah, I know, why post it here so that everyone knows you're an idiot ------ about brushless motors. Well maybe a few other things also------ like women, politics and religion.
If you're planning on running brushless in a zero-timing (spec ESC) class then 98% of the complexity is removed from the equation. Whereas many people have brand loyalties, the difference between the variety of ROAR-approved brushless motors is small. Hit the boards one time and you've negated any advantage a certain brand of motor may have had, whereas in open ESC classes you could pit for tires and still make up the gap to someone running a zero-timing ESC.

Certain state-of-the-art ESCs, such as the Tekin RS and Novak Kinetic, can do all of the timing advance/boost/turbo wizardry but are also legal to run in zero-timing spec mode when configured to do so. This condition is indicated by an easily-teched constantly blinking light on the ESC -- that's the damned blinking light. So, with such ESCs you can run the spec classes but still have the freedom to go gonzo in the open ESC classes as well if you so desire.

If not, there are a number of more affordable brushless ESCs on the market that don't have the timing advance features. You can pick up a used Novak GTB for cheap and it will be as competitive (and reliable) as any other ESC in spec class.

Brushless motors are super low maintenance. They consist of the outer stator, which is where the windings are, an inner rotor (basically a cylindrical magnet) that is the spinning part, and two conventional ball bearings the rotor rides on. There is no electrical connection between the fixed part and the moving part like there is in a brushed motor. Most brushless motor brands either partially or completely enclose the bearings so they don't get fouled up quickly. Many brushless motors don't have any sort of opening to atmosphere at all, further reducing maintenance.

Brushless motor maintenance consists of opening up the can once in a while (a long while), sliding out the rotor, blowing out any dust that may have gotten in there, cleaning/oiling the bearings, and putting it back together. If you really feel like spending more money you can put ceramic bearings in, but it's not necessary. I'm sure someone will point out that there are different diameter rotors available, which is a tuning option, but IMO it's not a big lever arm, just something to fiddle with once you get bored since you no longer have to spend much time on motor maintenance.

Let me know if there's any way at all I can help you. I may even open up about religious women politicians!
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Old 10-14-2010, 01:21 PM   #70
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Thanx to robk, Pete and locked for the info. I'm glad to hear that a computer isn't a required tool.

No, the guys at the track aren't a--holes. Actually are pretty decent people. It's just a pervasive attitude that if you aren't into brushless motors etc. you're not with it. It's an intolerance that for the most part you won't find amoung the SC advocates. Thus my characterization of SOME brushless advocates of being zealots. Don't believe me???? Go back and read some of the posts. I'm a SC advocate from way back, but have never wished for the demise of the brushless motor, nor have proposed that the world would be a better place if we ran SC in every class of racing. Again, read some of the posts.

There's a place for both and acceptance of this would go a lot further in having a meaningful discussion of SC racing. I thought when this thread was started, it was to perhaps improve the present situation in SC racing and not a forum for the advocates of brushless motors who basically would like to see them gone forever. I'm considering using a brushless system in my new FF03 cause it seems to have some merit. Will also race it with a SC if that's what's required.

Maybe some of the brushless folks should tone down your rhetoric a bit so that you seem more like advocates and less like zealots. Afterall, haven't seen one SC post that in effect said brushless is crap and should be consigned to the scrap heap or that I'll never never race brushless again cause ----- you supply the reason. Not aimed at the advocate, just the Zealts.
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Old 10-14-2010, 01:39 PM   #71
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haven't seen one SC post that in effect said brushless is crap and should be consigned to the scrap heap or that I'll never never race brushless again cause ----- you supply the reason.
I hear your other points 100%. It could be argued, however, that you haven't heard the above statement because it would be a really, really hard argument to make. The motors really are better in pretty much every respect except for price, and the economies of scale are bringing prices down now that brushless is totally mainstream (e.g. Cirtix). It would also be a valid point that even conventional brushless motors are in fact less expensive over time due to the motor's longevity and lack of required replacement parts & maintenance.

The big brushless black eye came from the ESCs, not the motors. Now, just in recent months, the ESC issue is being resolved and we will be able to move on. By resolved I mean that spec zero-timing ESC rules have been established for those who want them, and multiple brands have figured out how to compete out on the sharp end of timing advance ESCs, where an equilibrium is being reached.

There will be one more quantum leap in brushless ESC technology that will change everything, but it is a very complicated one and will take quite some time yet to develop. [/crystal ball]
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Old 10-14-2010, 01:53 PM   #72
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More fuel...

I can take a Tamiya silver can (at 4 amps rpms at 12,000) do a little tweaking and get around 16,000 plus rpms. The motor is not taken apart, just a little special breaking method using some special (and now illegal) chemicals and tools.

Of course the motor will only last 15-20 runs and it will melt down to a nice smelly mess but for the 8 to 10 runs it goes like the bat out of hell.

Do you think a race director or Tech would have a problem with it?

I'm betting yep.... THats why I don't bother to do it... Its not worth the time or trouble...
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Old 10-14-2010, 01:56 PM   #73
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Oh and BTW the checmicals I am using were original used to break in General Electrics airplane engines for the Air Force Fighter planes back in the 50s and 60s....
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Old 10-14-2010, 02:25 PM   #74
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.... Thats what makes silvercan Ugly. lol
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Old 10-14-2010, 02:52 PM   #75
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Oh and BTW the checmicals I am using were original used to break in General Electrics airplane engines for the Air Force Fighter planes back in the 50s and 60s....

hmmm lets see, run a johnson in a bath of chemicals i have to consult with the government to get. might light the bath on fire, or even worse my house, and waste my life away in basement squeezing 200 more rpms out of this drill motor...

or buy a 21.5, put it in my car, be competitive and HAVE FUN!.....


some people just dont think..
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