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Old 10-12-2010, 11:19 PM   #16
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Couldn't agree wIth you more that F1 is not stock or spec racing and is the ultimate in technology. However, the motors are rpm limited and they have other stringent rules as to aero, types of materials etc. My assumption is that this was done to "level" the playing field, yet leave room for innovation and to keep costs down. Also would like to point out to you that the racing is much closer and competitive than the halcyon days of unlimited technology. With no rpm limits, didn't McLaren win all but one or two races one season. Drivers were Senna and Prost and power was by Honda or Porsche, but you probably know more about that than I do.

I thought the discussion was about what could be done for Silvercan racing to "level" the playing field and reduce the advantage the Silvercan "wizards" have in the rpm and power dept. I was merely suggesting that rpm limiting the motors was a viable solution and is relatively easy to enforce. F1 was mentioned only to point out that rpm limits are used in even that ultra sophisticated form of racing.
You are talking about 1988 season, they won 15 out of 16 races. Would have won them all if it wasn't for a backmarker took out Senna. The car was Mclaren-Honda MP4/4. One of the best looking F1 cars of all time.
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Old 10-13-2010, 05:13 AM   #17
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Curious why so many are opposed to rpm limits when in full scale racing like Formula1, They use rpm limits to help even the playing field. Seems to me to be the simplest way to do this.
Maybe because it's not an easy thing to tech at the club level.

Two of the classes I've been running this year are USVTA and silver can TT-01. We are using the kit tires on the TT-01s. Lap times are very close. I think that the new 25.5 brushless motors may be the perfect replacement for silver cans.

I may be wrong but I think (and hope) the future looks like this:

Entry level classes = 25.5 no timing
Stock classes = 21.5 no timing
Super Stock = 17.5 no timing
Mod = 17.5 with timing.
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Old 10-13-2010, 05:24 AM   #18
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(digging through back yard shed) "Where is that thing? I know I put it here somewhere...not behind the Tiki lamps...watch your head there...maybe over here...YES!!!"

Sorry, took me a while to find my shovel. 'Cause I have to dig up that dead horse.

Apparently it hasn't been beaten enough yet.
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Old 10-13-2010, 05:36 AM   #19
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As long as there are silver can classes, the horse is alive and well.

Saddle up and enjoy the ride
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Old 10-13-2010, 05:47 AM   #20
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The good.

In times of a bad economy, there may be less people wanting to start r/c due to it being a hobby that is something you spend your disposable income on - I don't believe brushless is where all newcomers should start off. Just the experience of being in a race is enough.


Brushed motors and ESC's cost next to nothing these days, especially used which is great for getting new blood into the hobby.

The bad.

deciding who would qualify to be put into an entry level 540 motor race without putting the newcomer into jeopardy.
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Old 10-13-2010, 06:24 AM   #21
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Until the silver can is replaced as Tamiya's kit choice of motor, it will remain the standard. IMO

Maybe one day kits like the TT0x or M0x will come with an entry level brushless motor and esc like hobbywing or similar, but likely re-branded. I guess waiting for the costs of brushless to be on par with a TEU101 and Johnson 540 will be the biggest decider.
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Old 10-13-2010, 07:08 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by F N CUDA View Post






You're kidding right?



I don't think we're trying to go faster, just even out the playing field.

21.5, no boost, maybe even a fixed gear combo.

Mini could rock with this too.




More ugly:
Gonna figure out how to get more out of the next selected motor combo too, even without boost.
Like they say, that's racing.
no mate I am not kidding..... just think its the same as steve said about current limiting but instead of doing it at the speed control lets do it at the source with limiting the battery.... Maybe you wernt racing back then but I tell ya we had just as much fun back then but alot more things come into calculation but technology has moved forward and plug your esc into a pc have dial the shit out of it.....
Mate i run 17.5 anyway aswell as mod so it doesnt bother me.... I race in a small club in my home town and you hear the crap all the time.... it should a beginner class simple... Either you make every class open with no restrictions of restrict them all and have one open class.... Make silver can racing with the same speedo same battery and then a handout engine and ppl with stop carrying on with shit lol
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Old 10-13-2010, 08:27 AM   #23
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Good:
- I have a couple just lying around
- Keeps my Novak GTX and GTS in a car.
- 1 less Wire to solder up

Bad:
- Old tech should not be produced any more. (Tamiya's Fault) Minis should come with a cheapo sensorless system at least.
- Too Much work to tweak.
- Expensive in the long run. (If your competitive)

Comment: Makes sense for Mini racing cause they come with a esc and silver can. Does not make sense for F1 cause most races allow multiple chassis.
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Old 10-13-2010, 09:01 AM   #24
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The Good: Somewhat cheap, not too much maintenance.
The Bad: Some are better than others out of the box and will need to replace more often than a BL motor.
The Ugly: They can be tweaked for better performance.

It's funny this was brought up. Over the weekend I raced my F104 and told a fellow racer (running an F103) what my rollout was. He decided to put the same rollout on his car. Down the straight, my car looked like it had KERS compared to his. It's like a box o' chocolates you never know what you're gonna get...Or maybe the F104 has better straightline speed since it's more narrow? Hmmm....

Last edited by Apex; 10-13-2010 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 10-13-2010, 09:54 AM   #25
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Yeh, I was racing back then, '85, and NEVER had competitive power (or skills) in stock or mod.
It was all about the battery. Matching cells and pampering them, if you even got em.
Gear it to go as fast as it can BUT you still need to make 4 minutes.
If it made it 4 minutes, it wasn't fast enough. Heat was never an issue cuz you couldn't gear it hi enough and still make 4 min.

We never need to go there again.

Set limits on RPM or call it an open/modified class.

Silver can with a limit is some of the best racing ever.
Just need a crew to monitor it. More work for the race director but more fun for us.
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Old 10-13-2010, 10:07 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by F N CUDA View Post
Yeh, I was racing back then, '85, and NEVER had competitive power (or skills) in stock or mod.
It was all about the battery. Matching cells and pampering them, if you even got em.
Gear it to go as fast as it can BUT you still need to make 4 minutes.
If it made it 4 minutes, it wasn't fast enough. Heat was never an issue cuz you couldn't gear it hi enough and still make 4 min.

We never need to go there again.

Set limits on RPM or call it an open/modified class.

Silver can with a limit is some of the best racing ever.
Just need a crew to monitor it. More work for the race director but more fun for us.
yeah your right we dont need to go back there thats for sure lol.... Yeah we are both thinking the same things and just different ways of doing it tho.... I just think the classes need to be done better... I know the smaller the club wont be able to have a class for everything but in big meets I really think the options need to be thought thru alot more. I would be all for doing tech myself but I live to far away from a track that is big enough to make it worth while... Should move to where most of you guys are and life the life lol
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Old 10-13-2010, 10:13 AM   #27
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[QUOTE=woodys3b;8064902]Maybe because it's not an easy thing to tech at the club level.

Sorry, very easy to tech. Takes less than 1 minute per motor. Besides, at the club level you won't test every single motor. They don't even do that at a TCS Regional. The guys at the back of the field probably wouldn't be the ones with the ultra fast motors, so why test them. Maybe, only the top 2 or 3
would be enough. In a small field, check just the winner or whatever. A little common sense goes a long way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Apex View Post
The Good: Somewhat cheap, not too much maintenance.
The Bad: Some are better than others out of the box and will need to replace more often than a BL motor.
The Ugly: They can be tweaked for better performance.

It's funny this was brought up. Over the weekend I raced my F104 and told a fellow racer (running an F103) what my rollout was. He decided to put the same rollout on his car. Down the straight, my car looked like it had KERS compared to his. It's like a box o' chocolates you never know what you're gonna get...Or maybe the F104 has better straightline speed since it's more narrow? Hmmm....
90% of all NIB 540J motors will fall in a very narrow 500rpm or so range. There are a few a little slower, and I've never found that miracle motor. I've also checked, worked on, and owned hundreds of these motors.

The illustration you used to prove your point isn't valid cause you have too many variables. For example, just in the motor side of it there are a number of them. How old were each of the motors? Were they ever overheated? How much end play was in each motor? Were they equally maintained? Were both comms clean or dirty? And that leaves out the variables in the chassis, building, maintenance, electronics, etc. If you're attempting to say that since both cars ran the same roll out they should run the same or similar speed, you have to be in error. That would be like saying all red heads are beautiful cause they have red hair.
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Old 10-13-2010, 10:17 AM   #28
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Wouldn't it be interesting to have some sort of rc dyno, which you would place the driven wheels on a tachometer and have the drive pull full throttle before placing the car on the track?

Using the actual wheel speed of the vehicle may be a good way to regulate cars using rubber tires. Obviously, this can be fooled using the transmitter settings, but if bullet connectors on the motor were mandatory, you could just plug the motor into a variable power supply, and remove the ESC from the equation.

Just a suggestion.
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Old 10-13-2010, 10:44 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Granpa View Post
The illustration you used to prove your point isn't valid cause you have too many variables. For example, just in the motor side of it there are a number of them. How old were each of the motors? Were they ever overheated? How much end play was in each motor? Were they equally maintained? Were both comms clean or dirty? And that leaves out the variables in the chassis, building, maintenance, electronics, etc. If you're attempting to say that since both cars ran the same roll out they should run the same or similar speed, you have to be in error. That would be like saying all red heads are beautiful cause they have red hair.
Agreed lots of different variables involved. The only thing in common was that they were Tamiya 540 motors that came with each kit an F103 Anniversary (LRP QC2) and an F104 Pro kit (LRP QC3). Don't know if his was a 540J or not. I was just showing that there is a difference in motors and that some are slower\faster than others.
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Old 10-13-2010, 10:57 AM   #30
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(digging through back yard shed) "Where is that thing? I know I put it here somewhere...not behind the Tiki lamps...watch your head there...maybe over here...YES!!!"

Sorry, took me a while to find my shovel. 'Cause I have to dig up that dead horse.

Apparently it hasn't been beaten enough yet.
Not beating a dead horse here, Doc. Mainly trying to straighten out a few misconceptions. The horse is alive and well. Just leading it to water, but beyond trying to make him drink.

Biggest misconception seems to be that there is a huge difference in new NIB motors. It's deeply ingrained in the psyche of many silvercan racers. trying to convince them that MOST slow motors are due to abuse and lack of maintenance.

Second biggest misconception is that making a motor go faster is somehow evil or cheating. I proposed a simple solution so that everyone would have to run "slow" motors, but that always seems somehow to be too much work. Unfortunately, w/out rpm limits you better learn how to build fast motors. Now thats a lot of work.

The third seems to be that if you have a fast motor, you're cheating. Somehow, we seem to want to drag people down to a lower level. People are going to have to realize that you either work to build a faster motor or work in tech to keep the fast motors out.
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