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Old 10-20-2010, 05:42 PM   #91
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MantisWorxs, I agree totally with you about IRS on F1 cars and that F1 should be like full scale F1 using all the latest technology. ROAR stipulates that the F1 cars be direct drive and have a solid pan car rear axle. We at Enforcer RC are working on a direct drive IRS F1 car, but it will not have a solid rear axle. I have emailed ROAR about their archaic rules with regards to F1 and have been told they will possibly look into it; not holding my breath waiting If they(ROAR) persist in shackling F1 with these archaic rules then it will never evolve beyond the basic Tamiya t-bar or link type solid rear axle design that has been around for 20 years with only minor updates; there is only so much you can do with the design of the current rc F1 cars under these rules.

The problem is that most tracks and events want ROAR sanctioning and will therefore give in to their rules to get it. I don't no how to go about changing that!

MantisWorxs,I think you are on point. In in terms of technology i'm all for moving forward. Whats been the problem in the pass is Cost.
On-road racing needs some new life injected into it, as it has lost a lot of popularity and I think it needs some fresh new designs and a move towards more scale realism. We at Enforcer RC want to prove to the world that there are other ways to have a light weight direct drive rc car than the same old, boring, tired solid rear axle pan car design. As I mentioned in previous posts we hope to have a prototype F1 IRS car ready to test by January 2011.

I open this up to everyone else out there; any thoughts?
MantisWorxs,I think you are on point. In in terms of technology i'm all for moving forward. Whats been the problem in the pass is Cost. Many racer in and around my neck of the woods have stopped racing for one reason and one reason only. Cost!!!

Question:

1.What's the average cost for a newby to race F1 for the 1st time?

2.How much more would average cost increase for the car/chassis you are reffering to be?

The reason why I ask. More racers are looking into racing F1 because they see this form of racing to be far less expensive compared to classes like 4wd Sedan 17.5.
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Old 10-20-2010, 06:44 PM   #92
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As we know 4wd TC racing has grown to be very expensive with $400-500 chassis, etc. F1 cars with IRS would be only a little more expensive than the current F1 cars. The Exotek F1 conversion which also requires an F104 to complete it costs around $350 total I think. Our F1 IRS car would be less than that, probably in the high $200's to $300 max. Even the Tamiya F104 Pro is over $200. So costs wouldn't actually rise that much; and you are right, the cost of rc racing is driving many away, especially with regards to on-road cars.
Therefore it is supremely important to keep costs under control for the class to grow.
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Old 10-20-2010, 07:16 PM   #93
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As we know 4wd TC racing has grown to be very expensive with $400-500 chassis, etc. F1 cars with IRS would be only a little more expensive than the current F1 cars. The Exotek F1 conversion which also requires an F104 to complete it costs around $350 total I think. Our F1 IRS car would be less than that, probably in the high $200's to $300 max. Even the Tamiya F104 Pro is over $200. So costs wouldn't actually rise that much; and you are right, the cost of rc racing is driving many away, especially with regards to on-road cars.
Therefore it is supremely important to keep costs under control for the class to grow.

totally agree, my design pretty much uses already existing parts with some of my own designs . as you just said a 104pro with exotec is pretty expensive, i think i can get my car to be around 200 with IRS and double wishbone front. I think initially most of these design will not be as quick as what we have now but just like the 104 it is quickly catching up with the performance of the 103. so i dont think we need to worry about a new class until they actually get quicker or obviously and advantage. it would be nice to have a chassis that can handle 13t motors on rubber! Check out my website and see what i have done for mini-z F1's, it is quickly becoming the best class in mini-z racing!!
the thing is that even if they dont work as well at first if we ALL continue to give feedback they will get better. im a true F1 fan and i hate the fact that we run solid rear axles and single arm front suspension on a car that should be the quickest cars on the track....just like 1:1 LETS MAKE IT HAPPEN!! i just finished a rear suspension setup on my 103 that got me 1.5 seconds quicker on a 20 second lap track. not only that but the the track was not prepared and had pollen all over it AND i was running 35 rears! i could not make one lap before the suspension with those tires!! so im on it!!
Tudor, i dont have any pics as of yet i plan on milling the chassis this weekend and i will probably machine the rear bulkheads next week. so pix will be a few weeks away.

here is the 103 prototype solid axle:



sorry for the size
also i am in the process of opening up a 24k sqft indoor facility in houston. it will be the largest in houston and will have an offroad,onroad and full hobby shop. so for now we race at mikes in houston and will start F1 at M+M hobbies in a few weeks after the track is redone next week. i am really going to try and duplicate a real track for the onroad but not sure if i can pull it off!
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Old 10-20-2010, 07:22 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Enforcerman View Post
As we know 4wd TC racing has grown to be very expensive with $400-500 chassis, etc. F1 cars with IRS would be only a little more expensive than the current F1 cars. The Exotek F1 conversion which also requires an F104 to complete it costs around $350 total I think. Our F1 IRS car would be less than that, probably in the high $200's to $300 max. Even the Tamiya F104 Pro is over $200. So costs wouldn't actually rise that much; and you are right, the cost of rc racing is driving many away, especially with regards to on-road cars.
Therefore it is supremely important to keep costs under control for the class to grow.
Enforcerman, I say bring it on. To me, The more the merrier. I'd love to see your new car on the market. The truth is "If it's better for R/C F1 it's better for me.

Good luck to you. I hope you thrive.
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Old 10-20-2010, 07:43 PM   #95
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Thank you guys for your kind words. As soon as we have finished and tested the prototype we will post info and pics. Just be patient as it may be a few months, January hopefully. I have personally seen the CAD pics of the chassis and it's amazing! There will actually be two versions; one that is sort of a transition car that will have a standard F1 chassis and front end with a semi independent rear suspension, I say "semi" because it will still likely have a solid rear axle, but will still be completely different from anything out there, including the one shown by MantisWorx on this page. The second car will have the full independent suspension front and rear with direct drive and it will NOT have a solid rear axle. The weight of the car will be only slightly, and I mean slightly more than an F104. Imagine that if you will!

I predict this car will change everything!
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Old 10-20-2010, 07:46 PM   #96
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Thank you guys for your kind words. As soon as we have finished and tested the prototype we will post info and pics. Just be patient as it may be a few months, January hopefully. I have personally seen the CAD pics of the chassis and it's amazing! There will actually be two versions; one that is sort of a transition car that will have a standard F1 chassis and front end with a semi independent rear suspension, I say "semi" because it will still likely have a solid rear axle, but will still be completely different from anything out there, including the one shown by MantisWorx on this page. The second car will have the full independent suspension front and rear with direct drive and it will NOT have a solid rear axle. The weight of the car will be only slightly, and I mean slightly more than an F104. Imagine that if you will!

I predict this car will change everything!
im pretty sure your semi independent idea is what i have already done for the mini-z's!! my team drivers just got theirs a few weeks ago! Toe in is a wonderful thing
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Old 10-20-2010, 07:54 PM   #97
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MantisWorx, trust me when I say that our semi independent rear end is like nothing that has been done or seen before. That's all I'm at liberty to say.

As to your on-road track that you are building; it would be super cool if it had actual elevation changes like real F1 tracks like Spa and Suzuka. Also, make the track flow properly; most indoor rc onroad tracks are Mickey Mouse like the Hungaroring with one sharp corner after another without the good flow of the classic European and American roadcourses, if you know what I mean.
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Old 10-20-2010, 08:18 PM   #98
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I have mixed feelings about going away from the tried and true direct drive F1 car. While I agree they should be more advanced cars I would expect them to be more along the lines of the more advanced pan cars in 1/12th and WGT. Remember we already had a few different fully independent suspension F1 cars and none were anywhere near as popular as the direct drive F1 cars. The most known of course was the F201 along with a MLP 2wd independent suspension car and Kyosho had one as well. As I recall there was a pretty sophisticated one out of Japan as well that used the F103 wheels and tires...but can't remember what it was called.
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Old 10-20-2010, 08:19 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Enforcerman View Post
MantisWorx, trust me when I say that our semi independent rear end is like nothing that has been done or seen before. That's all I'm at liberty to say.

As to your on-road track that you are building; it would be super cool if it had actual elevation changes like real F1 tracks like Spa and Suzuka. Also, make the track flow properly; most indoor rc onroad tracks are Mickey Mouse like the Hungaroring with one sharp corner after another without the good flow of the classic European and American roadcourses, if you know what I mean.
cant wait to see it!! i got some pretty good designs myself! i have been in machine shops since i was 12 (im 40 now!) i have my own CNC mill and mazak lathe. decided to part ways with the family aerospace machine shop and do my own thing (father son drama of course). so i have decided to roll full steam with the RC thing and see what happens!TC is saturated and very boring F1 is wide open and growing, hence my mini-z products.
as far as the track goes that is exactly what i plan on doing but i cant seem to find a track that doesnt leave to much dead space, im going to have around 100'x60' or so. if you have some suggestions post up some layouts!
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Old 10-20-2010, 08:37 PM   #100
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InspGadgt, if you read my post you will see that we plan on the IRS F1 cars being direct drive with only two gears, the spur and pinion. The main difference as compared to the current crop of "tried and true" F1 cars is that it will have an independent rear suspension without a solid rear axle, but only minutely heavier; a win, win if you ask me! I think you are confusing our concept with the previous fully independent suspension F1 cars that were not direct drive, and used either belts and pulleys or more than two gears to get the job done and were definitely heavier. Our car will be a true direct drive car!

MantisWorx, why not try and duplicate Suzuka as close as possible. How many rc on-road tracks have both elevation changes AND a bridge! Plus the layout of Suzuka might be more space efficient.
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Old 10-20-2010, 08:39 PM   #101
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what concerns me is the bridge and how to be able to see and drive through it, where would i put the drivers stand?
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Old 10-20-2010, 09:05 PM   #102
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Snoop-- I have a duratrax and would love to see it be competetive.
Any hints?setups? I already run 103 rear axle/diff/tires.
MXRich says that I ran a Duratrax because of the times that he loaned me his to run for the day. Thats why he said that. I have never owned my own. Dont get me wrong the car ran fine, but I didnt set it up. So with all due respect to your question I shall refer to Robk, Alphacat, and in general anyone good at setting up pan link or t-bar depending on your config.

I ran an F201 for most of the season that MXrich was talking about. That was fun running 4wd and 2WD together.
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Old 10-20-2010, 09:17 PM   #103
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MantisWorx, that's a good question; I don't know quite where to put the drivers stand. Perhaps on one side of the bridge or the other. As to driving under the bridge, maybe you could view it like the tunnel at Monaco; for a second or two the cars would be out of sight. Yes it could lead to crashes, but it would also make it quite interesting as well; sort of a trade-off I guess. The best thing would be to google a map of the track and then figure it out. I still think it can be done.

Other tracks might be: Spa, Road America, Turkey, just to name a few. These all have elevation changes.
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Old 10-20-2010, 09:43 PM   #104
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http://www.pkracing.nl/

I've seen this but not while cars were running.

Cheers
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Old 10-20-2010, 10:11 PM   #105
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I have just read through this thread and have opinions on all of it, but will only express a few of them.
I have raced many forms of RC and seen many different concepts over the years. It is almost impossible to come up with an idea that someone hasn't already tried.
The one and only area I really want to touch on is the Independent rear suspension. F1 is a pan car class. Most all pan cars have solid axles. My opinion is it should stay this way. To go to independent, I feel would drive people away. It is one more area of chassis setup that a lot of people don't know and are afraid of.
I have an old F1 car I used to run WAY back when. It has a dual arm front suspension. It has a floating rear pod with shocks. It can use Tamiya rubbers, or 10th scale foams and I feel it would dominate all other F1 cars out there right now. But If someone saw that and knew how much a car like that costs, they would just turn their cheek and head the other direction.
All I am trying to say is keep it simple. Staying that way will keep people involved as well as bring in new people.
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