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Old 10-20-2010, 05:43 PM   #76
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Also Mr Novak, it means buying yet another ESC for many of us. I'd rather not go down that path if I could help it. Good for ESC manufacturers I guess....True

I think the best outcome to be honest is an ESC checker to be made/used that ROAR can plug, say, a Tekin RS into, go through the throttle range, and confirm it's not providing more timing. That way there is no confusion over what software is or isn't doing and allow ROAR to make easier decisions. This isn't possible in regards to "easily done."
Also, fixed timing motors are a great idea period. If one is stronger than another, then that's the manufacturers point-of-difference.This is the main reason to run sensoreless. There are too many varieances and tolerances to product "locked timing" mfg to mfg readings. Remove the sensors during the drive and there is a ceiling that no amount of engineering can change.
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Old 10-20-2010, 06:48 PM   #77
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GL on getting a device to tech every known ESC.......just isn't gonna happen. Can you imagine the lines in tech the moment some guys car won't intialize with the testing device?

I think Randy's idea is going down the right path, I just dunno people are gonna go for cogging sensorless systems.

People are certainly not gonna go with ONE esc or one motor type either.....

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Old 10-20-2010, 06:53 PM   #78
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YO , EDDIEO

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Old 10-20-2010, 06:57 PM   #79
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That's just it. I'm not saying full sensorless. Use a sensored start and sensorless drive. Sensors are really only needed for the first few inches of car travel.

This is our "D2 dual mode" . We use the sensors for perfect starts and shift to dual mode to continue the drive.

Sensorless drive would simply eliminate any tolerance issues with motor timing.
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Old 10-20-2010, 07:04 PM   #80
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But how do we stop a company (no names please) from doing stuff beyond ROAR tech abilities.....

Personally, I am starting to think just allow the Boost and stuff.....seems like there wasn't as much problems with accusations, just cars being way too fast.

Hey monte, I am doing good......if I could ever get this CNC mill running, I would be doing even better!

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Old 10-20-2010, 07:15 PM   #81
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Thats what i dont get. Electric is at an all time best. You really dont need expensive packs to run boosted 17.5. With brushless there is very little motor maintenance. Speeds are really more than the average racer can handle. Whats not to like?

We can all buy the fast 'ish' off the shelf. I know some are concerned with rollout still, but it isnt neccessary on rubber tires like it was with foams. Just boost and let live. I got into racing to learn how to go faster, why are so many wanting to slow down?
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Old 10-21-2010, 05:19 AM   #82
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Thats what i dont get. Electric is at an all time best. You really dont need expensive packs to run boosted 17.5. With brushless there is very little motor maintenance. Speeds are really more than the average racer can handle. Whats not to like?

We can all buy the fast 'ish' off the shelf. I know some are concerned with rollout still, but it isnt neccessary on rubber tires like it was with foams. Just boost and let live. I got into racing to learn how to go faster, why are so many wanting to slow down?
^^you answered your own question. too fast for the average racer. Learn to go faster? why? when you can just buy the fast equipment? Why learn to drive when that esc can easily give you .5 second every lap on the straightaway.

Not everyone can afford a 250++dollar esc every time a newer/faster one is released.

Racing is about competition in skill/driving/setup... not a competition of who can afford the most expensive/newest/fastest equipment. If you want to go fast, race mod... and prepare for expensive repairs. Even F1 racing has a limit on the amount of motors you can have, even rpm limits... if it was unlimited, the teams with the biggest budgets would always win.

Imo, its too hard to control motor timing... takes too long to tech.

Best esc= lowest resistance, lightest weight.
Best budget esc= cirtix stock club race.
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Old 10-21-2010, 05:35 AM   #83
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I know your statement isnt directed at anyone but, i enjoy taking the least recognized chassis on the track and doing well with it. I love spending as little $$$ as possible and doing well with it. I LOVE to win... but not at the expense of my man purse. So whats the effective variable? MY DRIVING!! It has to get better to beat the best.
Same here I guess, I have a trf415msxx (how many versions have come out since? ) that has seen a few seasons of racing, tyres replaced when the foam wears down to the rim and a transmitter that was purchased in 2000.

The most recent thing i've purchased is an rs pro, redline 13.5 and a 30c lipo just to keep up with the power others have.

It does the job, (hopefully my driving does too) and I make the A often
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:22 AM   #84
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Default Major Flaws in ROAR's current Zero Timing Class

~ No pre-approval requirement/process for "Approved" escs; ROAR lists whatever mfgs tell them to list

~ No way for series' promoters/race directors to test for esc compliance with ROAR's non-timing directives

~ No penalty or accountability for either racers or manufacturers who cheat
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Old 10-21-2010, 11:57 AM   #85
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People are certainly not gonna go with ONE esc or one motor type either.....
....but somehow plenty of people bought in to VTA, which is damn near as close to that as you can get.

...just sayin'.

I agree that for open racing at the "Sportsman" level, with all the market choices, on the local level it's up to the track owner/operators or club members to decide what's going to run at their tracks. If that doesn't pay the bills, they'll change until the right mix is found or go out of business and open a business opportunity for someone else. On a larger level, I have no idea how ROAR comes up with their list or what it takes to get a product tested and approved.

As to having a device to tech the speed controls individually, that's gonna be nearly impossible, and even if it was, the market for one is so small it's going to be unaffordable for anything other than a regional level outfit or event.
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Old 10-21-2010, 12:09 PM   #86
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The old LRP Sphere TC Spec is on the alowed list of speed controllers.. This speed controller doesn't have dynamic timing but it does have a form of timing advance on profile 7 and 8. I can't remember the value of timing it adds..

Do the other speed controllers add timing but not dynamic timing?

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ROAR Approved Sportsman ESC’s
Manufacture Part Number Name/Description Software Version Special Notes

LRP LRP80100 Ai Brushless Reverse N/A
LRP LRP80150 Ai Brushless Pro Reverse N/A
LRP LRP80400 SPX Brushless Super Reverse N/A
LRP LRP80410 Crawler ESC N/A
LRP LRP80500 Sphere Brushless ESC N/A
LRP LRP80910 SSX Stock Spec Brushless N/A Must use zero timing and zero Advanced Profile signified by blinking blue LED when in neutral.

This list is pulled from the ROAR website. There is no TC Spec speed controls on this list.
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Old 10-21-2010, 02:25 PM   #87
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....On a larger level, I have no idea how ROAR comes up with their list or what it takes to get a product tested and approved.

As to having a device to tech the speed controls individually, that's gonna be nearly impossible, and even if it was, the market for one is so small it's going to be unaffordable for anything other than a regional level outfit or event.
Currently, if an esc company claims that its controller/software is "legal", then the item is added to ROAR's "Approved" list. It is not necessary to get the esc or SW tested or pre-approved. So, "Legal" is whatever the manufacturer says it is.

We already have test equipment designed to check for timing; however, with no guidelines for pre-approval or esc tech at races (or accountability), there is also no need for test equipment.
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Old 10-21-2010, 02:44 PM   #88
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This whole thing is stupid.

Roar should of just made it slower motors and unlimited timing like 25.5s for the slow class.

I have seen more blown up motors since the 17.5 unboosted class was instituted than I have seen since brushless made the norm.

Its not easy to get FDR's in the 3's it makes for huge pinions, small spurs and inconvienent situations. I see people taking topdecks off to get pinions on now. Its rediculous. Get back to unlimited timing and smaller motors.

Cars havent gotten any faster in almost a year.
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Old 10-21-2010, 03:16 PM   #89
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Currently, if an esc company claims that its controller/software is "legal", then the item is added to ROAR's "Approved" list. It is not necessary to get the esc or SW tested or pre-approved. So, "Legal" is whatever the manufacturer says it is. That's flat out stupid! I guess that I expected there to be better tech in the "Tech Director" area of responsibility. Silly me, guess I've been hitting the crack pipe again!

We already have test equipment designed to check for timing; however, with no guidelines for pre-approval or esc tech at races (or accountability), there is also no need for test equipment. Sorta my point. Manufacturers have the equipment, but in the event that ROAR ups and decides that it's mandatory equipment for all regional and above events, how much would it cost to make that device and sell it to race clubs/tracks/etc? I'm betting that it's not cheap! That added expense alone means that damn near every local track just isn't going to care anymore, and their going to set their own standards based on what pays the bills to keep the doors open and the lights on. Let's not even get into the topic of software updates and what they supposedly do or do not do!

If the technology exists to check to a particular standard, ROAR has a duty, IMHO, to SET a standard and have the independant ability to CHECK that standard BEFORE APPROVING ANYTHING on any list. That is, if they want to retain the pretext that, as a sanctioning body, their opinion of what is "fair" or not has any validity. If there's no accountability or penalty, there's no point in there even being an arbitrary list. Makes one wonder what sort of undue influence could/would/is exerted by manufacturers on what ROAR is/does and how that has steered the market!!
Thoughts in RED above!
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Old 10-21-2010, 04:50 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by NovakTwo View Post
~ No pre-approval requirement/process for "Approved" escs; ROAR lists whatever mfgs tell them to list

~ No way for series' promoters/race directors to test for esc compliance with ROAR's non-timing directives

~ No penalty or accountability for either racers or manufacturers who cheat
I find this very interesting NovakTwo and suggest that you (walk over?) speak to Bob Novak.

Your points do not seem to reflect my meetings with Bob. To the point Novak has made or is finishing a device that is intended to be used in the field to check esc's.

I have personnally worked with Bob over the last several months, along with other Mfg's to structure the rules, penalites and testing methods.
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