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Old 10-20-2010, 09:18 AM   #61
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Does anybody just want to race and have fun anymore.....
I do!
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Old 10-20-2010, 09:22 AM   #62
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It all seems to be happening in the "zero timing" class today...

http://www.redrc.net/2010/10/lrp-boo...trol-proposal/

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LRP have announced that they are sending a rule proposal for ‘Boost 0 speed controls’ to all the important RC federations to help create a new standard for this setting in all ESCs...Speed controllers eligible for ‘Boost 0′ classes must provide zero timing advance, along with disabling advanced motor control functions (i.e. Boost, Cheat Mode, Turbo, etc). When the ‘Boost 0′ profile is enabled, it shall be indicated by a blinking LED while the ESC is armed and in neutral position. The commutation sequence is limited to ‘6-step’ type and commutation of the speed control must follow the motors hall sensor signals 1:1, e.g. no shifted timing (no matter if advanced or retarded) is allowed at any RPM.
Obviously the sh*t has hit the fan about a certain speedo running a certain software in the past few days (naming no names because that seems to lead to threads being deleted ), so LRP have published their suggestion for what a zero timing ESC really should be. It seems common sense to me.

Although I put it to LRP (and the other interested manufacturers) that if they REALLY want a level playing field, they should voluntarily fix the timing of their motors at the same point. LRP's motors have a huge amount of advance, so will always outperform other brands if the ESC timing is taken away.

A clear, enforceable set of rules is needed to make zero timing stock classes the success they deserve to be.
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Old 10-20-2010, 09:46 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by sosidge View Post
It all seems to be happening in the "zero timing" class today...

http://www.redrc.net/2010/10/lrp-boo...trol-proposal/



Obviously the sh*t has hit the fan about a certain speedo running a certain software in the past few days (naming no names because that seems to lead to threads being deleted ), so LRP have published their suggestion for what a zero timing ESC really should be. It seems common sense to me.

Although I put it to LRP (and the other interested manufacturers) that if they REALLY want a level playing field, they should voluntarily fix the timing of their motors at the same point. LRP's motors have a huge amount of advance, so will always outperform other brands if the ESC timing is taken away.

A clear, enforceable set of rules is needed to make zero timing stock classes the success they deserve to be.
I remember 10 years ago there was a rebuildable 24 degree fixed timing brushed motor we used for stock and it made a very level playing field when we used a certain capacity battery.
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Old 10-20-2010, 09:52 AM   #64
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I do!
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Old 10-20-2010, 10:23 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sosidge View Post
It all seems to be happening in the "zero timing" class today...

http://www.redrc.net/2010/10/lrp-boo...trol-proposal/


Although I put it to LRP (and the other interested manufacturers) that if they REALLY want a level playing field, they should voluntarily fix the timing of their motors at the same point. LRP's motors have a huge amount of advance, so will always outperform other brands if the ESC timing is taken away.

A clear, enforceable set of rules is needed to make zero timing stock classes the success they deserve to be.
The LRP motors at 4 dot timing is 30 degrees timing. Then it can be raised another 20 degrees. Just like most of the other motors out there. The reason it runs like it does is not because it has more timing than the other motors.
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Old 10-20-2010, 10:29 AM   #66
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The LRP motors at 4 dot timing is 30 degrees timing. Then it can be raised another 20 degrees. Just like most of the other motors out there. The reason it runs like it does is not because it has more timing than the other motors.
Ditto what Chicky said. Once you get a few degrees above 50 degrees of timing the motor starts cogging and to much further will have trouble trying to stay in phase and rotate forward. At a point it will go backwards just like in the brushed days of mod. If you went to far the motor went backwards. Not a lot of difference as you can think of the sensors in a brushless motor as the slots on the comm in a brushed motor so to speak.

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Old 10-20-2010, 12:54 PM   #67
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That's what I like about this hobby - you can smile at it from any angle.

You can win with a cheaper car and smile at the guys who run more expensive stuff, or you can smile that you just enjoy the hobby at your own level of expense and gratitude...

If you ask yourself often why am I into r/c and see no good answer(s), it's not for you.

Sooner or later that question is asked by anyone into r/c.
I know your statement isnt directed at anyone but, i enjoy taking the least recognized chassis on the track and doing well with it. I love spending as little $$$ as possible and doing well with it. I LOVE to win... but not at the expense of my man purse. So whats the effective variable? MY DRIVING!! It has to get better to beat the best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sosidge View Post
LRP's motors have a huge amount of advance, so will always outperform other brands if the ESC timing is taken away.

A clear, enforceable set of rules is needed to make zero timing stock classes the success they deserve to be.
Agreed. Spec should be spec, and if one manufacturer isnt going to be chosen to make the spec products, then all manufacturers should follow an enforced program. This isnt anything new. This control was pretty much down pat with brushed setups.

I however disagree on LRP motors. Their advantage is their lack of vulnerability to heat. My point with timing is it has a limit (as mentioned by a few peeps) and you can effectively go only so far with it. With LRP motors you can go higher within that effective range than most motors because they resist heat fade.
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Old 10-20-2010, 12:57 PM   #68
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True story. I saw the poor car hit the wall. Sorry Dave it was kinda amusing Just show a lil more self control next time. Trust me when I say. "YOU" are the guy to beat at our track, if and when you show up
Dude i totally laughed at it myself! A few hours later anyways.

I love being at the track... just have a few things to pan out in the next month so i can go balls out for the Birds!
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Old 10-20-2010, 01:52 PM   #69
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Anytime something is done for "spec" one must consdier the variables involved. There is really only one way to look at this: Control what you can, replace what you can't.

Since timing has become the "equalizer" in mind simply run the motors in sensorless mode. This "mode" prevents ANY and ALL motor timing,period. Dot 2 insert in an LRP, who cares. Novak Ballistic spun out to the moon, won't matter.

Sensorless is quite literally limited to around 24 degrees MAX and cannot be forced higher due to physical limitations in the current motor design, period.

If you want to try this "mode" simply set your timing advance in your Tekin RS to 100(max sensorless timin) and yank the sensor harness. Yes it will cog a bit but once you get going you will see the speed. Personally I think this "speed" is ideal. No matter what you do to motor/can timing it's this speed.

Sensorless has no "magic" or way around to get more timing from it.
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Old 10-20-2010, 03:08 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Randy_Pike View Post
Anytime something is done for "spec" one must consdier the variables involved. There is really only one way to look at this: Control what you can, replace what you can't.

Since timing has become the "equalizer" in mind simply run the motors in sensorless mode. This "mode" prevents ANY and ALL motor timing,period. Dot 2 insert in an LRP, who cares. Novak Ballistic spun out to the moon, won't matter.

Sensorless is quite literally limited to around 24 degrees MAX and cannot be forced higher due to physical limitations in the current motor design, period.

If you want to try this "mode" simply set your timing advance in your Tekin RS to 100(max sensorless timin) and yank the sensor harness. Yes it will cog a bit but once you get going you will see the speed. Personally I think this "speed" is ideal. No matter what you do to motor/can timing it's this speed.

Sensorless has no "magic" or way around to get more timing from it.
With a strong specification for what "zero timing" really is, there is no need for us to have to suffer cogging in order to get a level playing field.

Just like in the brushed days, the competitive advantage in a zero-timing class does not come from how fast you can make the motor turn, but from throttle feel, tunability, packaging, or just good old fashioned marketing!

As I have said before, this strong specification also needs to be applied to the motors too. Fix the timing.

There is no doubt a place in the hobby for people that enjoy the software tweaking, the bi-monthly downloads, the test sessions, the blown motors, the frustration of still being slower than the other guy. There is also a place for people (like me) who just want a fit-and-forget solution that I can gear up if the track is big or gear down if the track is short. And yes, I will probably still be slower than the other guy, but I won't need to use my laptop to acheive it.

Equally important is the newcomers to the hobby. The club I race at is very fortunate to have a large number of relatively new racers, with relatively small budgets. There is a mountain of older brushless ESC's out there that they could make use of - and the last thing they need is another level of complexity to learn about in an already complicated hobby.
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Old 10-20-2010, 03:11 PM   #71
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put a price cap on esc for spec class.
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Old 10-20-2010, 04:09 PM   #72
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Here is a comment that I posted on Jan 4, 2010; I still stand by every word:

http://www.rctech.net/forum/6804025-post8.html
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Old 10-20-2010, 04:43 PM   #73
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Default Zero Timing

The old LRP Sphere TC Spec is on the alowed list of speed controllers.. This speed controller doesn't have dynamic timing but it does have a form of timing advance on profile 7 and 8. I can't remember the value of timing it adds..

Do the other speed controllers add timing but not dynamic timing?

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Old 10-20-2010, 05:07 PM   #74
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That "esc" design doesn't fix motor timing.
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Old 10-20-2010, 05:35 PM   #75
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Also Mr Novak, it means buying yet another ESC for many of us. I'd rather not go down that path if I could help it. Good for ESC manufacturers I guess....

I think the best outcome to be honest is an ESC checker to be made/used that ROAR can plug, say, a Tekin RS into, go through the throttle range, and confirm it's not providing more timing. That way there is no confusion over what software is or isn't doing and allow ROAR to make easier decisions.

Also, fixed timing motors are a great idea period. If one is stronger than another, then that's the manufacturers point-of-difference.
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