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Old 10-22-2010, 12:18 PM   #136
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I think I was supposed to get a set of those shoes, but never did.....we always just rotated the can some when I was a kid with the ERP.......we tried it once with brood when Adrian made a big deal about how he was gonna DQ racers at nats if the gauss meter showed them timing zapped.......all our testing showed the magnet died off too easy from heat......

I guess I need to go silver cans.......those with crawler motors, maybe I can become a millionaire again

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Old 10-22-2010, 01:07 PM   #137
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I have less than a year of racing under my belt so I guess I can be considered a noob. There is a lot of talk from the seasoned veterans about entry level classes and keeping the accomplished drivers from cherry picking. I may be the exception, but I welcome the cherry pickers. I would much rather get passed cleanly by a cherry picker than taken out by another noob. I'm new to this sport. I don't expect to win any races. I don't feel bad when I finish two laps down. I learn more and have more fun when I get to race with the good drivers. I say make a class that is a good place to start, but don't worry about the cherry pickers. If they don't mind racing with some guys that hit them once in a while, I don't mind finishing mid pack. Someday, I will be one of the cherry pickers. Not because I need to win, but because I enjoy the tight racing that these "beginner" classes offer. Speed does nothing for me. Good controlled passing (and a lot of it) is what turns me on.

BTW, I am quickly learning that silver can racing is the most expensive class out there. USVTA and USGT are the answer to this mess. But USGT has an achilles. Timing speedos. Make it like USVTA except with 21.5 and it will be perfect.
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Old 10-22-2010, 04:04 PM   #138
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send them to the VTA side of the mountain....we got cookies for them...
Hey I didn't get my cookies when I joined the VTA scene someone owes me some COOKIES!!!!
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Old 10-22-2010, 04:34 PM   #139
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Hey I didn't get my cookies when I joined the VTA scene someone owes me some COOKIES!!!!
Rob, send this man some cookies....btw, wheres mine?
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Old 10-22-2010, 06:06 PM   #140
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What I do take from "discussions" like this is that the focus is nearly always based with an onraod bias. We don't get this much "heat" with the offroad crowd.

Onroad will not grow at all until it gets it's own version of the Slash. Onroad has always been known to be intimidating with complicated cars and sure complicated electronics.

What I think needs to be settled on is wether or not the technology is the issue or the speed is the issue. If you want to slow down the cars, fine we can slow them down.

Is the technology really that big of an issue? Didnt' we all used to test springs, brushes, polish comms, polish busings, zap magnets, zap cans,etc?

Racing for me has always been about bringing two parts together: Driver talent, and mechanical talent. I've seen balances of both. I'm not the fastest driver in my area but I can hold my own. I am good at setting up cars, choosing the right tires, and picking fast lines around the track. There are of course others that have god given driving talent but are driving busted as cars with tires falling off! LOL

Simply coming out with "cheap" will not fix this issue. So again is the technology the issue? Or is the Speed the issue? The lack of new "racers" isn't the overwhelming technology in my opinion it's the cost of consumables. Someone brought up tires: yeah $60 a set can add up quick...

Brushless esc's and motors were given the "last forever" tag a long time ago for whatever reason. Giving the customer the ability to use their esc in multiple cars, multiple classes is only smart business. You're giving them more bang for their buck. The RS is nearly 2 years old and hasn't had a single hardware change. Yet still today is one of if not the best esc on the market. This was done with FREE software updates.

If you want to force the manufacturers to make a cheap non programmable stripped esc, fine. But when that "new" racer has to buy ANOTHER esc to move from "sportsman" to Stock of heaven forbid MOD he'll be buying another esc. Again from a manufacturers stand point this is GREAT! LOL

Give onroad a "slash" class. Setup a class where the rules are simple and offer it to the manufacturers. You want to silver can it, go ahead. Manufacturers can either choose to get into the class or not....
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Old 10-22-2010, 06:17 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Randy_Pike View Post
Give onroad a "slash" class. Setup a class where the rules are simple and offer it to the manufacturers. You want to silver can it, go ahead. Manufacturers can either choose to get into the class or not....
Usually it happens the other way around. Someone comes out with a new platform at a cheap price that is a step between toy grade and race grade. People buy them as fun play cars and soon, some local track starts racing them. Everything is great until the Serpents, Mugens, AEs, etc. start making full blown race versions.

Look at the nitro GT racing. Just lowered buggies with car bodies. Cheap, easy, competitive racing. It's only a matter of time before someone comes out with a full blown, pure bred race car. Once that happens, it's over. Why bother when you can run the existing 1/8th onroad?
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Old 10-22-2010, 06:40 PM   #142
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Look at the nitro GT racing. Just lowered buggies with car bodies. Cheap, easy, competitive racing. It's only a matter of time before someone comes out with a full blown, pure bred race car. Once that happens, it's over.
Sean, it sounds like you've been there before.
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Old 10-22-2010, 06:58 PM   #143
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Sean, it sounds like you've been there before.
Yeah, Nitro TC. Now I'm a full blown racer so I have no problem with the current form of nitro TC racing but it's not what it started out to be.

I got started racing with the original gold tub RC10. But I wasn't racing offroad. I was running carpet oval. You take an RC10, lower it a bit, slap on some foam tires and a modified or sprint car body and you have some great entry level racing. The car is slow and heavy, has good suspension with sticky tires so no matter how bad you screw up the set-up, it still goes around the track. I mean you had some people using wd40 for shock oil, others STP. Crazy thing is that BOTH worked.

Plus the car was indestructible so you didn't have to spend all day fixing it.

The problem I see with a lot of entry level classes using cheap rtr type spec cars is that most of them are either flimsy, easy to break junk or have such a primitive design that while simple to build, almost impossible to get working well. Slash seems to be about the closest thing to my RC10 oval days and that's great. But how long before someone makes a true full blown race version and everyone insists on allowing them into the class?
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Old 10-22-2010, 07:13 PM   #144
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kinda hard to have it both ways. the crack choice for cheap is still the TT01. any1 who was at jackson RC last mth knows that all too well.

on the oval (carpet, asphalt, or (best) dirt) the choice was the bolink legend. stupid simple fun and your racing too.

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Old 10-22-2010, 07:22 PM   #145
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Randy quit making sense, you are going to confuse the newbies and they will quit RC forever:P

Onroad has always been a love hate affair since I have been around......from literally dead to the biggest thing since silicone implants.......to dead again. This last round saw it die from Pro 10 cars that were faster than anything and blew up from the slightest crash, with only the worlds best being able to pilot the things around the track........onroad saw its revival when 10 guys started running some tamiya 4wd sedans, cause they looked cool and they were fun to drive.......then companies like Xray, Corally, etc put out $400+ cars with parts that aren't cheap.....

BUt it seems, people wanna blame the recession (I call BS), brushed motors, ESC tech, too many classes....etc etc. Its a combo of all of it.

Onroad has multiple CHEAP classes that any newb can run.....1/12th scale? Tons of cars.....setup is fairly easy, tons of traction.....lots of track time. But everyone wants a Slash class......

All I know is, brushless might of gotten rid of comm lathes.....but it surely didn't remove any voodoo......surely isn't much cheaper, and surely doesn't save much time, as yer just spending 20 minutes on your laptop setting stuff up........seems like the headaches have tripled from them. Anyone read the 2008 Snowbirds thread on Hobbytalk? I sure never saw a 40 page thread on a brushed motor issue.

Lipo has done 100 times more for electric racing that brushless.....I love it....one charger, little balancer plug.......a few packs, thats it......no dischargers, multiple GFXs, crazy charging and discharging rituals.....no 3 new packs every month.

And for the record, I sold more batteries most months, with WAY better profits margins than motors.......

Later EddieO
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Old 10-22-2010, 07:55 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by EddieO View Post
I think I was supposed to get a set of those shoes, but never did.....we always just rotated the can some when I was a kid with the ERP.......we tried it once with brood when Adrian made a big deal about how he was gonna DQ racers at nats if the gauss meter showed them timing zapped.......all our testing showed the magnet died off too easy from heat......

I guess I need to go silver cans.......those with crawler motors, maybe I can become a millionaire again

Later EddieO
lol, come on down to FW eddie, you can watch zapped silver can racing at its finest, nothing i like better then to watch a guy on a the drivers stand only pulling half trigger until he needs a little extra "boost"

oh btw, like the tread i started back when,

"eddieo was/is right"
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Old 10-22-2010, 09:04 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Randy_Pike View Post
Brushless esc's and motors were given the "last forever" tag a long time ago for whatever reason. Giving the customer the ability to use their esc in multiple cars, multiple classes is only smart business. You're giving them more bang for their buck. The RS is nearly 2 years old and hasn't had a single hardware change. Yet still today is one of if not the best esc on the market. This was done with FREE software updates.
Are we talking about startup cost, or the progression of upgrading/updating as you mature as a racer?

I only own one Tekin RS. All my other ESC's are sub $100 (bought as new or used). Reason, less expensive for all the classes I run and for my kids. I would be crazy to buy 7 Tekin's or any other $200+ ESC to switch between classes. It's an overkill.

Again, there has to be an entry level/Zero Timing ESC for this wave.
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Old 10-22-2010, 10:07 PM   #148
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Yes, you will never be able to replace knowledge or raw talent. There is only one winner.

There is no need to further complicate things by making new people figure rpm ranges vs. gearing vs. motor temp. Just sayin'.
Well said Robk. Tekin and others have Timing Profiles for those that don't have the knowledge or time to create their own. Realistically, you'd have to be well past the intermediate level to really use the difference available from a custom vs. factory Timing Profiles

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Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
alot of good points in this thread....so for all you guys that love speed...thats fine...17.5,13.5,mod and beyond...boost and turbo away...yeah...

but for all the new people trying to get into the rc onroad scene, send them to the VTA side of the mountain....we got cookies for them...
Robk and Darkside - You guys have been a part of the VTA class for a long time. I ran it for a couple of years, fantastic fun.

Perfect example though of what I was bringing up earlier. Everything switched in the configuration after the season was under way. I don't have $2200 as SteveP insinuated & had just upgraded my 1/12th to brushless/LiPo/Esc. No way I was also adding 2S LiPo and gear to the 9 year old Losi XXX-S I was racing. All the other brushless classes were using 17.5 or 13.5, so naturally they pick 21.5 2S. If your trying to save rc'ers money, gear it up with stuff they might already be using instead of everything different you can come up with?

The other thing is - how can the argument for every class be centered around the newbie? Once they learn to get around the track, most of them want to run against the faster guys in the group and try to improve. Look at the quote below. SPEC isn't NOVICE. Every class can't be based on the NOVICE. If you have a bunch of NOVICE guys starting that's AWESOME! Just run a NOVICE class and have a few guys in your group in their pit trying to help them get things going, that simple. No need to stir up all the classes, ESC rules, Dynamic Timing, ETC. Most of the ESC's have preset profiles for those just getting into Dynamic Timing setup. Let people have something else to learn and tinker with, it keeps the old guys around to help out the new ones. SPEC classes are fine too. Like I said, VTA was some of the most fun I ever had! I really don't think 1/12th Stock is supposed to be a SPEC class or a NOVICE class. No reason the Club level 1/12 can't run a NOVICE class with no timing and let the rest of us tinker?


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Originally Posted by woodys3b View Post
I may be the exception, but I welcome the cherry pickers. I would much rather get passed cleanly by a cherry picker than taken out by another noob. I'm new to this sport. I don't expect to win any races. I don't feel bad when I finish two laps down. I learn more and have more fun when I get to race with the good drivers. I say make a class that is a good place to start, but don't worry about the cherry pickers. If they don't mind racing with some guys that hit them once in a while, I don't mind finishing mid pack. Someday, I will be one of the cherry pickers. Not because I need to win, but because I enjoy the tight racing that these "beginner" classes offer. Speed does nothing for me. Good controlled passing (and a lot of it) is what turns me on.
Listen to the Newb - They want to race with faster guys so they can get better.

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Originally Posted by Randy_Pike View Post
What I think needs to be settled on is wether or not the technology is the issue or the speed is the issue. If you want to slow down the cars, fine we can slow them down.

Is the technology really that big of an issue? Didnt' we all used to test springs, brushes, polish comms, polish busings, zap magnets, zap cans,etc?

Racing for me has always been about bringing two parts together: Driver talent, and mechanical talent. I've seen balances of both. I'm not the fastest driver in my area but I can hold my own. I am good at setting up cars, choosing the right tires, and picking fast lines around the track. There are of course others that have god given driving talent but are driving busted as cars with tires falling off! LOL

Brushless esc's and motors were given the "last forever" tag a long time ago for whatever reason. Giving the customer the ability to use their esc in multiple cars, multiple classes is only smart business. You're giving them more bang for their buck. The RS is nearly 2 years old and hasn't had a single hardware change. Yet still today is one of if not the best esc on the market. This was done with FREE software updates.
Randy - First thanks for your customer service and also your involvement in the greater good of the hobby!

I don't think a majority of drivers really want you to slow things down. Just provide the ability to slow them down for clubs that have a NOVICE group in a particular class. Oh, right, you already did that.

Actually I want to complain that I'm finally learning how to really use my Tekin programming skills after a year of study and now I have no place to use it. That bites.

I totally agree that driver, setup and machine make the package. Don't take mastery of the machine out of the equation. We may find out how many of the old guys are still around because they love to tinker and learn when they quit showing up. Mastery of something isn't supposed to be easy or quick for that matter.

I'm faster, having more fun and have less $$$ involved in the hobby after getting out of all the old school brushless stuff! I still run a Fantom ION 1 a ton and it's 3 years old. Replaced the circuit board once for $9, oil the bearings once a month. Have a couple of Redlines that get a lot of use. No sweat, 4 brushless motors and almost 0 maintenance. Got rid of a box full of brushed motors on ebay along with dynos, brush cutters, spring and hood alignment tools. It's like waking up from a nightmare.

Your system of ESC with free upgrades is the best thing going, hands down. Some of these other guys would like to think buying a $90 or $100 ESC every season is more user friendly? 2 years for $159 puts me ahead, unless they're using that "new math". Besides that, my RS will do just about anything you can dream up with the custom programming. Maybe I should have splurged for the $400 job that I would have to mail off to Sweden or some damn place, every time I wanted to adjust my Turbo setting? NOT.

Just to summarize. Didn't this thread get started by some dude who wanted to find out what the "fastest" SPEC ESC was?? Round and Round. Round and Round Just break off a NOVICE class as needed. Let the rest of us turn it loose. We're here to go as fast as we can, have a great time with our buddies and learn something that might make us better tomorrow. Look at how long Robk has been around. Whether he'll admit it or not, he's not still around because he's spent all this time trying to figure out how to go slower!
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Last edited by VRacing; 10-22-2010 at 10:45 PM. Reason: added paragraph
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Old 10-23-2010, 03:59 AM   #149
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I am thinking cheap brushed ESC and sealed silvercan motor for a beginner only class.

Make it simple, (Getting gearing right is hard enough for a newcomer, they dont need any other things to set right except ESC calibration) and make it cheap.

I do not believe brushless technology is what every newcomer needs, it shouldn't be forced upon them.

Looking at expensive items is cool but not affordable to all.

It needs to look FUN, AFFORDABLE and SIMPLE.

(Remember those first sedan tamiya kits in the 90s? They ticked all the right boxes)....
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Old 10-23-2010, 08:36 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Craig W View Post
Hi guys


Was wondering what the best esc to use in zero timing as at out local the going to start running a heat for 13.5t
1.Novak Havok Pro
2.Novak GTB
3.Tekin RS/Pro
4.LRP SXX Stock Spec
5.LRP SPX Reverse/Zero

answered...anybody else got a thought on this...top 5?
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