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Old 09-21-2010, 03:21 PM   #16
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I might add that a 13.5 w/timing class would probably be well attended at, say FW and other clubs whose base is made up of more experienced intermediate racers. This would give some of the mod racers a second class to run and some stock racers would run it as a second class also. The down side is if the mod numbers aren't strong enough you could very well weaken the class turnout. The 13.5 w/timing is the most logical class to add if you have to do it. This no timing issue doesn't make sense, if you want to slow it down do it with less motor, much easier to do.
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Old 09-21-2010, 03:38 PM   #17
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Classic, we made this very mistake with our rules in NZ this last year. Our stock is silver can, and then there is mod, of course. We introduced 13.5 open esc just over a year ago, before dynamic timing and turbo were introduced. At that time, 13.5 was a little faster than the old ProStock bruhsed, quite driveable, and a good intermediate step.

Fast-forward a year, we run on a large asphalt track www.crccc.co.nz and most of our mod drivers run Super Stock, the track record is held by a Super Stock driver, who used to race mod, and many of us have more power than we can handle, but loathe the idea of crawling around with a silver can, so put up with it (as oppposed to loving it a year ago).

IMO, 13.5 no timing is a fair amount of power for an club/intermediate driver to be able to MASTER. That is, not just cope with driving it, but really manage the power and car and improve their driving. 10.5 no timing wouldn't be a huge amount more power, and still less than 13.5 open, but why not make it a true middle-of-the-road class if you have a chance.
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Old 09-21-2010, 03:39 PM   #18
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I agree with ALOT of that Pops The other side of this also was something that Ritchie brought up. Which I want to revisit. The dynamic timing and boost Genie's are outta the bottle. Done deal. Can't go backwards at this point. But the point I gathered from Ritchie was the fact that quite a few of us PNW'ers go to big local and Nat'l races where 'timing and boost' classes are ran. Most of us have newer tech speedos; so why not get some much needed practice running what our hard earned money has paid for?
Sorry to the diehard "only 2 classes/Stock or Mod" guys. Brushed 19t ransacked that party. The jump between just a 17.5BL (no boost) and a 4.5BL is entirely too drastic of a jump for anyone. There NEEDS to be some middle ground. As I type this....13.5 w/timing & boost (in our neck of the woods), I feel would be a perfect solution as that starting middle ground. Well...at least until the question is revisited next season
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Old 09-21-2010, 03:48 PM   #19
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Information is your friend.

It should be said the 'we' are not looking to ADD a middle class as suggested and as has been responded to. Right now we run 17.5 no timing, 17.5 timing, and mod. I suggested on our local thread that 17.5 timing be switched to 13.5 timing. I think its important to keep a timing class as many racers like it and many travel to big races where it is used.
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Old 09-21-2010, 03:55 PM   #20
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Information is your friend.

It should be said the 'we' are not looking to ADD a middle class as suggested and as has beed responded to. Right now we run 17.5 no timing, 17.5 timing, and mod. I suggested on our local thread that 17.5 timing be switched to 13.5 timing. I think its important to keep a timing class as many racers like it and many travel to big races where it is used.
Didn't I just say dat!?!
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Old 09-21-2010, 04:04 PM   #21
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I might add that a 13.5 w/timing class would probably be well attended at, say FW and other clubs whose base is made up of more experienced intermediate racers. This would give some of the mod racers a second class to run and some stock racers would run it as a second class also. The down side is if the mod numbers aren't strong enough you could very well weaken the class turnout. The 13.5 w/timing is the most logical class to add if you have to do it. This no timing issue doesn't make sense, if you want to slow it down do it with less motor, much easier to do.
Jon I believe you are correct, the only reason not to have 13.5 timing is the fear that it will hurt mod. I don't believe it will. While lap times might only be a little off of mod your not gonna get that bottom end rip like you do with mod which will keep most coming back.
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Old 09-21-2010, 04:05 PM   #22
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Didn't I just say dat!?!
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Old 09-21-2010, 04:22 PM   #23
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It should be said the 'we' are not looking to ADD a middle class as suggested and as has been responded to. Right now we run 17.5 no timing, 17.5 timing, and mod.
Well... not exactly. If FW decides to fold 17.5 expert and 17.5 sportsman both down into a single 17.5 stock class (no timing), then we are down to 2 sedan classes. So "we" (the club) would certainly be looking for a class to fill the void. (unless we conclude as a whole that the two by themselves would be enough)

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I suggested on our local thread that 17.5 timing be switched to 13.5 timing. I think its important to keep a timing class as many racers like it and many travel to big races where it is used.
Great points Ritchie... because staying on top of the timing tech is important for other clubs and for larger races, it would certainly be important to keep a timing class at FW.

On the flip side, couldn't you run 13.5 timing, 10.5 timing, or 8.5 timing in mod to keep up on your timing tech?
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Old 09-21-2010, 04:57 PM   #24
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Sedan needs 3 classes at big races. I like the trend of 17.5 spec, 17.5 open and mod. I participated in all 3 at IIC and enjoyed it immensely.

Clubs might be a different story though. Are there enough racers to support 3? You've gotta have a slower class for the newer guys, and 17.5 spec seems to fill that gap well. You don't have to start mod with a 4.0 in your car just because you can. But you might have to get used to not winning for a while.

Anyway, to answer the actual question: I like the idea of a 13.5 spec class. You get way more ESC choices, including some that don't feel like you're driving with an old wiper ESC. The downside is you probably push your motor harder. You could also probably turn on boost and compete nicely in the mod class with nothing more than a pinion change.

Then the question is, would you let boosted 17.5 guys run with 13.5 spec to allow your spec crowd the option of also running two classes without a motor change?
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Old 09-21-2010, 05:01 PM   #25
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Just a little input from across the pond guys. I am doing a winter series this year where the three TC classes are 13.5, 10.5 and open. All three classes are open to timing and boost.

But 10.5 and 13.5 are just too close. My advice would be to make sure that whatever classes you run, they have a noticeable speed difference.

I always thought 27t, 19t and mod was a good split so I would reckon that 21.5, 13.5 and mod (all with open timing) would be a good split. I know it means people buying new stuff, but you then keep the speed down for the beginners while allowing timing in all classes (so guys know how to use it for big races). Although I suppose keeping 17.5 no timing is pretty sensible as well.

In general I think the stock classes need to be slowed down everywhere round the world, I see newbies coming off the track in bits, they go home and never come back, you never got that with 27t. There needs to be a proper stock class where things are actually slooooooow.
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Old 09-21-2010, 06:00 PM   #26
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Sedan needs 3 classes at big races. I like the trend of 17.5 spec, 17.5 open and mod. I participated in all 3 at IIC and enjoyed it immensely.

Clubs might be a different story though. Are there enough racers to support 3? You've gotta have a slower class for the newer guys, and 17.5 spec seems to fill that gap well. You don't have to start mod with a 4.0 in your car just because you can. But you might have to get used to not winning for a while.

Anyway, to answer the actual question: I like the idea of a 13.5 spec class. You get way more ESC choices, including some that don't feel like you're driving with an old wiper ESC. The downside is you probably push your motor harder. You could also probably turn on boost and compete nicely in the mod class with nothing more than a pinion change.

Then the question is, would you let boosted 17.5 guys run with 13.5 spec to allow your spec crowd the option of also running two classes without a motor change?
I also ran two of the spec classes at IIC. By taking away the ESC tuning, it becomes a drivers race. It really gave me the opportunity to slow down and learn to drive the correct line. Very instructive for new/struggling drivers, but also provides a real close battle for the accomplished drivers.
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Old 09-21-2010, 06:01 PM   #27
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Well... not exactly. If FW decides to fold 17.5 expert and 17.5 sportsman both down into a single 17.5 stock class (no timing), then we are down to 2 sedan classes. So "we" (the club) would certainly be looking for a class to fill the void. (unless we conclude as a whole that the two by themselves would be enough)


Great points Ritchie... because staying on top of the timing tech is important for other clubs and for larger races, it would certainly be important to keep a timing class at FW.

On the flip side, couldn't you run 13.5 timing, 10.5 timing, or 8.5 timing in mod to keep up on your timing tech?
isn't that like the talk almost everyman has had with his wife, hey honey look at my new shoes, I saved $100.00 they were 50% off, What you spent 100 bucks on shoes again, no I didn't spend 100 bucks, I saved 100 bucks.

right now right now, we have 3 classes, I'm suggesting changing one of those classes, you say, fold two classes together and add 10.5 as a middle class, is not the same exact thing as running 3 classes, FW deciding not to run a middle class is a red herring that needs to be returned to safeway before it goes bad.

yea, and we can also run 17.5 with no timing in mod along with the nitro cars and Trans Am, but thats not the way to run a race program.

now hows that for a herring
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Old 09-22-2010, 01:39 AM   #28
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Thinking about it now, what is so wrong with the classes you have, it is pretty perfect for progressing up, 'cos guys from non timed 17.5 just change the speedo profile and away they go into boosted 17.5, there must be a pretty decent speed difference as well, yet it isn't as fast as mod is. Seems to me that you have a pretty good setup right now as is, cheap to change classes whilst having a good speed difference and the newbies don't have to worry about complex timing profiles.

Unless people are whinging about the classes you have, or turnout is bad in one class, then why faff around? I thought 17.5 was more popular in the US than 13.5 anyway?

So looking at it a second time I actually wouldn't change a thing.
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Old 09-22-2010, 03:19 AM   #29
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Why create more classes and dilution? Make it open, and everybody can run.
+1.

Don't dilute it, concentrate it into stock and mod. You only see 3 classes at a big meeting imo.

Two factors to look at here...

1) Ask the racers what they want, because THEY are what make the club operate, and

2) look at your entry figures, to see if a 3rd class is viable or not.
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Old 09-22-2010, 08:00 AM   #30
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Hey there's thought, ask the racers that race there. Or even better ask the racers that don't come around anymore. Yea, been there done that that's why I suggested the change.

Little more info, this year the 17.5 class was split. Other classes were dropped. We have the lowest turnout in years....... you figure it out
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