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Old 09-20-2010, 01:47 PM   #61
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...For those that squawk Safety your on crack.
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Crack! I knew it!

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Old 09-20-2010, 02:35 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Tekin Prez View Post
.01V is nothing and within the accuracy tolerance of most hand meters.

From a safety standpoint .01V means nothing.

From a fair competition standpoint .01V means nothing.

On a 4S battery it is even less than nothing.

Yet this weekend Sean Cochran of AE and Ty Campbell of Tekin were both DQ on qual runs for batteries that were 16.81v at tech and I am sure there were others. Same batteries charged on the same chargers multiple times that passed tech and then oops and no second chance.

16.80 in tech or it does not race and I fully agree, but turn it on for a few seconds and these cars pass. There has to be some rational thought to the process.

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Since when does ROAR imply a rational thought process?
ROAR has always implied a rational thought process. It's racers who don't.

Here's the deal. When LiPo first made the scene, there was a lot of talk about the safety of the packs. ROAR talked to many LiPo manufacturers and they agreed the safest way to charge was to limit the voltage in the battery. The manufacturers suggested a max voltage (for a 2 cell pack) should be 8.4 volts. But someone brought up the fact that not all voltmeters would read exactly the same, so the wording of the rule was "max voltage of 8.4 volts, plus or minus .04 volts." How did the racers read this? The max voltage was 8.44 volts! When it became obvious that racers were pushing the limits of the rule, completely ignoring not only the spirit of the rule but the safety aspect as well, the rule was changed to max 8.40 volts. This is where the whole ROAR approved charger nonsense started.

Seems rational to me.

Now what to do with racers who's battery voltage is too high? Now that is a good question because it's easy to forget to check your charger and go over a little. That would have to be the race directors discretion, and it would have to be enforced equally.

So let me ask you this, if .01 volts or .04 volts doesn't make a difference, why does every racer charge their packs right to the absolute limit?
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Old 09-20-2010, 02:44 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by EAMotorsports View Post
While I am not trying to argue but play devils advocate I agree that those caught trying to cheat should be DQ'd. But on the same argument you present then shouldnt someone who is 1/4 ouce under weight at time of presenting their car to tech be DQ'd? Or .5mm to low of ride height? Those are things that are allowed to be corrected and re-presented to Tech. Whats the difference with .01 on the battery Voltage? For those that squawk Safety your on crack.

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Yes, I believe that all infractions listed above should result in a disqualification when presenting a car for final tech inspection.

I think the appropriate solution is to have a "pre-tech station" which could allow all racers to have their cars 100% compliant before final tech inspection. However at time of final tech inspection (pre/post race) any infraction should result in an immediate disqualification of the heat/main.

While it is okay to debate the validity for a specifc lipo battery voltage rule at any given event (safety concerns vs. competitive advantage), it doesn't change the fact that it is a rule. If we allow "common sense" to creep into decisions, it invariably creates a perception that someone was given an unfair advantage. It also penalizes the majority of the racers who were able to comply with the rules.
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:11 PM   #64
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Why charge right to the limit when everybody takes 5 hot laps and the the top of the battery off anyway? In the end it doesn't need to be charged to the limit.
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Old 09-20-2010, 05:05 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
ROAR has always implied a rational thought process. It's racers who don't.

Here's the deal. When LiPo first made the scene, there was a lot of talk about the safety of the packs. ROAR talked to many LiPo manufacturers and they agreed the safest way to charge was to limit the voltage in the battery. The manufacturers suggested a max voltage (for a 2 cell pack) should be 8.4 volts. But someone brought up the fact that not all voltmeters would read exactly the same, so the wording of the rule was "max voltage of 8.4 volts, plus or minus .04 volts." How did the racers read this? The max voltage was 8.44 volts! When it became obvious that racers were pushing the limits of the rule, completely ignoring not only the spirit of the rule but the safety aspect as well, the rule was changed to max 8.40 volts. This is where the whole ROAR approved charger nonsense started.

Seems rational to me.

Now what to do with racers who's battery voltage is too high? Now that is a good question because it's easy to forget to check your charger and go over a little. That would have to be the race directors discretion, and it would have to be enforced equally.

So let me ask you this, if .01 volts or .04 volts doesn't make a difference, why does every racer charge their packs right to the absolute limit?
I agree our industry needs more regulation needs a complete overhaul .Let me know if im wrong but i think we are the only industry at the moment without strict regulations .

I am a manufacturer and distributor and would love to see regulation sooner than later maybe this way we can clean out the industry with dangerous products like chargers we see today on the market .Mostly overnight chinese companies .

roar ,efra,ifmar lets do something about it .
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Old 09-20-2010, 05:19 PM   #66
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there is a reason battery companies don't use aligator clips to test voltage for cell matching
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Old 09-20-2010, 06:55 PM   #67
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For what its worth, both of our Hyperions, a Duo3 and a 606 DC only job, consistently measured 8.39 at the recent offroad Nats. Close enough for me. New to 8 month old lipos. We were outside under a canopy same as tech. Checking your stuff ahead of time was prominently mentioned at the drivers meeting and was quick and easy.
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Old 09-20-2010, 07:02 PM   #68
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I would enjoy seeing an argument showing how a one strike rule makes it a better race or accomplishes anything positive.

I am not saying give anyone special treatment, especially the prima donna sponsored drivers Lets give EVERYONE special treatment and do everything we can to make sure they enjoy the race and actually get to participate. There is a big difference between intentional cheating and oops, sorry my cheap charger is not NASA calibrated. Most just hit the start button and unplug it when it is done. Few chargers are adjustable or can be calibrated. Stupid and lazy should not be a capital offense.

People take time off work and spend a grand or more to go to some of these races and get DQd for something trivial and unintentional with no chance to correct it? Thats not good business and these races are a business or they do not exist. It is silly to upset the customers over insignificant issues that can be corrected on the spot in less time then they will spend argueing about it.

I firmly believe fun is the key, not disappointment and rage over meaningless technical details. We can enforce the rules within the spirit and intent to keep people from overcharging their batteries to gain an advantage, Or we can make it super rigid and be fun suckers. Common sense does belong in this decision and everyone hates a Fun Sucker.

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Old 09-20-2010, 07:07 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Tekin Prez View Post
I would enjoy seeing an argument showing how a one strike rule makes it a better race or accomplishes anything positive.

I am not saying give anyone special treatment, especially the prima donna sponsored drivers Lets give EVERYONE special treatment and do everything we can to make sure they enjoy the race and actually get to participate. There is a big difference between intentional cheating and oops, sorry my cheap charger is not NASA calibrated. Most just hit the start button and unplug it when it is done. Few chargers are adjustable or can be calibrated. Stupid and lazy should not be a capital offense.

People take time off work and spend a grand or more to go to some of these races and get DQd for something trivial and unintentional with no chance to correct it? Thats not good business and these races are a business or they do not exist. It is silly to upset the customers over insignificant issues that can be corrected on the spot in less time then they will spend argueing about it.

I firmly believe fun is the key, not disappointment and rage over meaningless technical details. We can enforce the rules within the spirit and intent to keep people from overcharging their batteries to gain an advantage, Or we can make it super rigid and be fun suckers. Common sense does belong in this decision and everyone hates a Fun Sucker.

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Well said!!!
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Old 09-20-2010, 07:08 PM   #70
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Problem is, do you want to waste time for everyone because about 50% of the participants are over voltage, so they then get to handle their car once again, drain the battery (possibly remove weight, or do SOMETHING else to the car)? No, you get a chance at Tech ONCE! Please no more than that.

Even adding 1 minute per heat for lazy people not checking against another approved voltage checker is much much too much time.
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Old 09-20-2010, 07:08 PM   #71
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Common sense does belong in this decision and everyone hates a Fun Sucker.

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Old 09-20-2010, 07:22 PM   #72
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This is hilarious. The voltage is what it is regardless of the tester being used. If someone is a "true" 8.4v on the nose and the tester being used reads high does anyone really think this person is really a cheat or trying to beat the system? Knowing how to quote a rule book and actually thinking about the consequences are not mutually exclusive concepts.

The rule makes sense in principle and is probably based on great reasoning. Just make sure it is measured correctly so people breaking the rule are punished, not the ones who aren't. Why give people even more reasons to stay home?
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Old 09-20-2010, 07:53 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Tekin Prez View Post
I would enjoy seeing an argument showing how a one strike rule makes it a better race or accomplishes anything positive.

I am not saying give anyone special treatment, especially the prima donna sponsored drivers Lets give EVERYONE special treatment and do everything we can to make sure they enjoy the race and actually get to participate. There is a big difference between intentional cheating and oops, sorry my cheap charger is not NASA calibrated. Most just hit the start button and unplug it when it is done. Few chargers are adjustable or can be calibrated. Stupid and lazy should not be a capital offense.

People take time off work and spend a grand or more to go to some of these races and get DQd for something trivial and unintentional with no chance to correct it? Thats not good business and these races are a business or they do not exist. It is silly to upset the customers over insignificant issues that can be corrected on the spot in less time then they will spend argueing about it.

I firmly believe fun is the key, not disappointment and rage over meaningless technical details. We can enforce the rules within the spirit and intent to keep people from overcharging their batteries to gain an advantage, Or we can make it super rigid and be fun suckers. Common sense does belong in this decision and everyone hates a Fun Sucker.

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Old 09-20-2010, 07:55 PM   #74
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We hosted a race this weekend, and I believe we followed the spirit of the rules. If your car weighed 1417, you were allowed to run and told to correct it before the next round. Batteries at 8.41 were given the same consideration. These people weren't trying to cheat, and we didn't have any repeat offenders. If a car was presented at 1380g or 8.5, you were DQ'ed (no one did this). It was explained at the drivers meeting that the rules were in place for safety and equal racing. I think that we achieved that. After the first couple of rounds, we had racers tech'ing each others cars. I tech your car, you tech my car. I'm not going to let you cheat and you're not going to let me. It worked out well and we had a great time.

Back to chargers. If voltage over 8.4 is dangerous, why do some have a "competition" mode that peaks at 8.5? Funny that this same charger shows the same 8.4 volts on the screen but shows 8.5 on the VM.
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Old 09-20-2010, 07:59 PM   #75
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Back to chargers. If voltage over 8.4 is dangerous, why do some have a "competition" mode that peaks at 8.5? Funny that this same charger shows the same 8.4 volts on the screen but shows 8.5 on the VM.
I don't know of any that will intentionally go to 8.5. Most "comp mode" chargers go to 8.44. Of course, if they are not reading accurately they could go to 8.5 while still showing 8.44 on the screen.
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