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Old 09-19-2010, 02:25 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
.1 over voltage is illegal everywhere not just in ROAR.


Maybe the root of the problem is the fact that classes are being raced were .1V makes a difference (perceived or real). I charge my mod packs to 8.35.
My point is not that there is anything wrong with the voltage limit, or not having any fudge room. It really doesn't matter what the limit is set at either, 4.2, 4.22, 4.38/cell for that matter. My problem is with a punative measure like disqualification being applied when treating it like any other rules infraction would work.
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Old 09-19-2010, 05:09 PM   #47
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That right there is the funniest thing I have read in a while...

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It COULD happen....
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Old 09-19-2010, 08:27 PM   #48
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Well yes and no, really only some mobile devices use the same chemistry we use in RC from what I can see (people keep saying 'lipo' is used in auto cars, but I have yet to find one example of that,
http://www.hyundai-blog.com/index.ph...lymer-battery/

http://www.koreaittimes.com/story/75...eeps-ev-market
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Old 09-19-2010, 10:06 PM   #49
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.01V is nothing and within the accuracy tolerance of most hand meters.

From a safety standpoint .01V means nothing.

From a fair competition standpoint .01V means nothing.

On a 4S battery it is even less than nothing.

Yet this weekend Sean Cochran of AE and Ty Campbell of Tekin were both DQ on qual runs for batteries that were 16.81v at tech and I am sure there were others. Same batteries charged on the same chargers multiple times that passed tech and then oops and no second chance.

16.80 in tech or it does not race and I fully agree, but turn it on for a few seconds and these cars pass. There has to be some rational thought to the process.

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Old 09-20-2010, 07:59 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Tekin Prez View Post
.01V is nothing and within the accuracy tolerance of most hand meters.

From a safety standpoint .01V means nothing.

From a fair competition standpoint .01V means nothing.

On a 4S battery it is even less than nothing.

16.80 in tech or it does not race and I fully agree, but turn it on for a few seconds and these cars pass. There has to be some rational thought to the process.

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Totally agree with your comment
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Old 09-20-2010, 08:12 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekin Prez View Post
.01V is nothing and within the accuracy tolerance of most hand meters.

From a safety standpoint .01V means nothing.

From a fair competition standpoint .01V means nothing.

On a 4S battery it is even less than nothing.

Yet this weekend Sean Cochran of AE and Ty Campbell of Tekin were both DQ on qual runs for batteries that were 16.81v at tech and I am sure there were others. Same batteries charged on the same chargers multiple times that passed tech and then oops and no second chance.

16.80 in tech or it does not race and I fully agree, but turn it on for a few seconds and these cars pass. There has to be some rational thought to the process.

Tekin Prez
+1000. If its to high then allow them to lower it like everywhere else as long as its where it should be when the race starts. The key to the whole thing is the last sentence you wrote!

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Old 09-20-2010, 08:32 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Tekin Prez View Post
There has to be some rational thought to the process.
Since when does ROAR imply a rational thought process?

I totally agree on the meter tolerance issue. Unless they are using a lab grade meter that gets calibrated like it should, they should throw out the last digit altogether. Some of the cheaper meters don't read the same voltage consecutively, meaning turn the meter off/on and you get two different readings.

At the Carpet Nats in 2009, the cheap meter they were using was causing a lot of racers' packs to read high, so I went home and got my Fluke meter. Problem solved, even though nobody changed how they were charging.
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Old 09-20-2010, 09:43 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by CarbonJoe View Post
Since when does ROAR imply a rational thought process?

I totally agree on the meter tolerance issue. Unless they are using a lab grade meter that gets calibrated like it should, they should throw out the last digit altogether. Some of the cheaper meters don't read the same voltage consecutively, meaning turn the meter off/on and you get two different readings.

At the Carpet Nats in 2009, the cheap meter they were using was causing a lot of racers' packs to read high, so I went home and got my Fluke meter. Problem solved, even though nobody changed how they were charging.
Hey, an overly punitive rule based on a measurement that isn't done correctly or consistantly. Can it get any better? Good thing their meter wasn't reading low. Half the US would probably be a smoldering coal from all those Lipo's bursting into flame. Safety first.
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Old 09-20-2010, 10:28 AM   #54
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There have been some good posts in this thread on how to adjust/upgrade specific chargers which is the type of information the average racer needs. I would prefer to read how to adjust the charge rate on a charge to guarantee that I pass tech.

I honestly could care less than a sponsored driver was dq'ed because they broke a rule. It doesn't matter if a track/event is using cheap measuring devices. It doesn't matter if your personal scale/volt meter/ride height gauge shows that your car is legal in the pits. All that matters is that racers have access to the track/event's measuring devices prior to the start of racing so that they can make adjustments if necessary so that they don't fail tech. I've never been to an event where I was denied access to tech equipment prior to my heat/main.

If the rules of an event state that a car must meet exact specs when presented to tech, then anything beyond the maximum is illegal or cheating. If any racers feel the need to push the limits of the legal specs, then that is their personal choice and they should quietly accept the consequences. Personally I'd rather err on the side of caution knowing that most electronic measuring devices have some amount of variance than risk being dq'ed.

In the end if .01v really doesn't make a difference, then why not err on the low side and not risk losing a qualifying run?
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Last edited by IndyRC_Racer; 09-20-2010 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 09-20-2010, 10:56 AM   #55
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I'm sorry but NO TWO volt meters read the same unless you spend THOUSANDS $$$$

throw out the last digit or SELL ME AN APPROVED METER

Don't pick some random meter at an event that cost $20 and expect everyone to read the same voltage, that is wrong!
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Old 09-20-2010, 11:30 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by IndyRC_Racer View Post

In the end if .01v really doesn't make a difference, then why not err on the low side and not risk losing a qualifying run?
Because chargers are designed to charge to 8.40 and the tolerances are not that exact at times. A lot depends on line voltage, temp and other things. The GFX is the ONLY charger I have ever seen that will charge the batteries to the exact same voltage every single time as long as you have the small leads READ (VOLTAGE SENSING LEADS) connected correctly. Others are all over the place.

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Old 09-20-2010, 12:02 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by IndyRC_Racer View Post
There have been some good posts in this thread on how to adjust/upgrade specific chargers which is the type of information the average racer needs. I would prefer to read how to adjust the charge rate on a charge to guarantee that I pass tech.

I honestly could care less than a sponsored driver was dq'ed because they broke a rule. It doesn't matter if a track/event is using cheap measuring devices. It doesn't matter if your personal scale/volt meter/ride height gauge shows that your car is legal in the pits. All that matters is that racers have access to the track/event's measuring devices prior to the start of racing so that they can make adjustments if necessary so that they don't fail tech. I've never been to an event where I was denied access to tech equipment prior to my heat/main.

If the rules of an event state that a car must meet exact specs when presented to tech, then anything beyond the maximum is illegal or cheating. If any racers feel the need to push the limits of the legal specs, then that is their personal choice and they should quietly accept the consequences. Personally I'd rather err on the side of caution knowing that most electronic measuring devices have some amount of variance than risk being dq'ed.

In the end if .01v really doesn't make a difference, then why not err on the low side and not risk losing a qualifying run?
If the sole arguement is this rule is being enforced to maintain competitive balance I agree there should little to no wiggle room. If there is any pretense this is for safety then the arguement goes out the window when the measuring devices are either cheap and have huge variance or are just not properly calibrated.

Not sure why a small and set amount of error can't be accepted to account for variances in manufacturing tolerances. Seems less hokey than having a bunch of people rendered illegal till a participant goes home and gets a meter that actually reads correctly.
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Old 09-20-2010, 12:52 PM   #58
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The real issue here is that no matter how a racing organization defines rules, there will be racers who push the boundaries of those rules. Mandating a specific volt meter or brand of charger isn't going to change the mentality of competitive people. It will only add unnecessary cost.

It is unfortunate that not all chargers are as accurate as they should/could be. The same can be said of volt meters. However, that doesn't excuse a competitor at a race from taking a few minutes to make sure that their equipment is capable of complying within the rules of that specific event. I see this as no different than adjusting chassis setup for different track conditions.

I see no problem with disqualifying any driver who fails any aspect of tech upon first inspection. It was that driver's choice to present their car to tech at that time. Whether failure was due to ignorance of rules, trying to circumvent rules, or pushing the limit of the rules is irrelevant. In my opinion it can all be considered cheating and should be handled accordingly. I realize that this may not be a popular stance when it concerns sponsored racers, but I think it is the only fair way to interpret rules.

We can endless discuss if .01v is dangerous and/or a competitive advantage and worthy of being dq'ed. I think it is more helpful if we teach racers to better use their existing chargers so that they can comply with whatever limits are imposed at a specific event.
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Old 09-20-2010, 01:28 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Tekin Prez View Post
...
16.80 in tech or it does not race and I fully agree, but turn it on for a few seconds and these cars pass. There has to be some rational thought to the process.
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Thank you! This is the point I was trying to make before this turned into a discussion about voltmeters. It's not the rule, it's the way ROAR has chosen to enforce it that is the problem. According to what I've seen, ROAR will allow you to check your battery at tech before you present it for teching in for your heat, so if the argument is that an overcharged battery is unsafe then isn't it still unsafe if you take it to tech just to check it? Kind of like "Don't ask don't tell" isn't it?

Why not just treat the situation like any other rules infraction? If your car's wing is too high, go cut it down and get back in line. If your voltage is too high why not just go discharge it a bit and go through tech again. If you don't make it in time then tough bounce, just like any other tech situation.
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Old 09-20-2010, 01:35 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyRC_Racer View Post
The real issue here is that no matter how a racing organization defines rules, there will be racers who push the boundaries of those rules. Mandating a specific volt meter or brand of charger isn't going to change the mentality of competitive people. It will only add unnecessary cost.

It is unfortunate that not all chargers are as accurate as they should/could be. The same can be said of volt meters. However, that doesn't excuse a competitor at a race from taking a few minutes to make sure that their equipment is capable of complying within the rules of that specific event. I see this as no different than adjusting chassis setup for different track conditions.

I see no problem with disqualifying any driver who fails any aspect of tech upon first inspection. It was that driver's choice to present their car to tech at that time. Whether failure was due to ignorance of rules, trying to circumvent rules, or pushing the limit of the rules is irrelevant. In my opinion it can all be considered cheating and should be handled accordingly. I realize that this may not be a popular stance when it concerns sponsored racers, but I think it is the only fair way to interpret rules.

We can endless discuss if .01v is dangerous and/or a competitive advantage and worthy of being dq'ed. I think it is more helpful if we teach racers to better use their existing chargers so that they can comply with whatever limits are imposed at a specific event.
While I am not trying to argue but play devils advocate I agree that those caught trying to cheat should be DQ'd. But on the same argument you present then shouldnt someone who is 1/4 ouce under weight at time of presenting their car to tech be DQ'd? Or .5mm to low of ride height? Those are things that are allowed to be corrected and re-presented to Tech. Whats the difference with .01 on the battery Voltage? For those that squawk Safety your on crack.

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