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Old 11-21-2011, 01:12 PM   #3661
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[/QUOTE]You can also notice some weird behavior after the turn as the car seemed to stay in the turn too long. Most likely my driving there.[/QUOTE]

I ha the same issue with my tc6. I tightened the rear diff and it helped.
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Old 11-21-2011, 02:01 PM   #3662
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Originally Posted by Mera'din View Post
Well, I went down to a 4mm shim on the rear upright, put 350 weight oil back in the front, went to the -.75 hinge pin holders in the rear, and changed to -2 degrees camber in the rear.

Here is a link to the video. My car is the orange white one. I qualified 2nd and finished in 2nd but I am not 100% sure it was my setup or driving. There is a lot of traffic on the track and the other drivers got stuck often. Please don't pay too close attention to my bad driving, which is more troublesome than the setup. In fact, most of my setup requests probably could be handled by better driving!

Anyways, I noticed if I throttled back on the large turns I could navigate them well without trouble. The problem arose when I tried to go through the turns faster, the rear would wash out. Turning did not seem to be a problem but I would still like to keep some quick corner speed manuverability. I had my end points down to about 80 percent which was nice as I didn't have the spool chattering on every turn like I did last week.

You can also notice some weird behavior after the turn as the car seemed to stay in the turn too long. Most likely my driving there.

The first turn after the straight has been a killer for me. There is a lot of slow traffic and to get around it you have to pass on the outside. Once you get out of the groove there is no traction sending you into the wall!

I'd like to be able to stay on the power sooner on the long turn before the straight and longer into the turn after the straight to keep the speed up.

what is the size of that track?
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Old 11-21-2011, 02:17 PM   #3663
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SMALL! Just kidding, I think we measured it to be 60ft x 25ft.
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Old 11-21-2011, 04:32 PM   #3664
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Can anyone describe what each of the holes in the new upper clamps felt like when you've tried adjusting/moving betweent the different holes?

I recall several posts where someone has described what using the different positions was like but I can't find it.
What are your experiences?

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Old 11-21-2011, 11:19 PM   #3665
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Still struggling a bit with both of my cars, T3'11 and my T3'10. The '10 I can live with to a point since it is just running a vta.

Both almost seem hypersensitive/twitchy (more so with the vta) but the main trouble I am still having is corner speed. I can get around the slow corners pretty good thanks to all your help but I still oversteer (?) in the long corners under heavy throttle.

I am unsure if it is happening at corner entry and that is when the momentum changes, indicating too much initial steering (to me). Or if it is happening mid corner under power. If I reduce speed before the turns I can navigate them pretty clean but I am loosing ground there.

Here are my current setups.
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File Type: pdf t3'11.pdf (481.3 KB, 248 views)
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Old 11-21-2011, 11:36 PM   #3666
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I couldn't get my t3'10 uploaded as it is too big but 100kb. Silly limitations!

Anyways, it is basically the rubber setup. On the sedan I appear to be getting some rubber build up on the inside of the tires. I have heard the term death ring but i took that to mean the inner tire wearing faster than the outside. This loooks like rubber buildup.

What would shortening the camper links do? If I flex the chasis right and left the outside tire leans pretty far over due to the chasis roll I have. Could I reduce this by shortening the links? I'd say both cars have more outter tire wear than inner.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:08 AM   #3667
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mera'din View Post
I couldn't get my t3'10 uploaded as it is too big but pe. Silly limitations!

Anyways, it is basically the rubber setup. On the sedan I appear to be getting some rubber build up on the inside of the tires. I have heard the term death ring but i took that to mean the inner tire wearing faster than the outside. This loooks like rubber buildup.

What would shortening the camper links do? If I flex the chasis right and left the outside tire leans pretty far over due to the chasis roll I have. Could I reduce this by shortening the links? I'd say both cars have more outter tire wear than inner.
Yes it will. The car will be easier to drive, especially if the fronts are shorter than the rears.

How are you checking your camber? I was using the hudy setup station, I then realised with the wheels on, my camber readings were totally different. Now when I put 1.5 degrees on when checking against the wheel, if I put my gauges on, it shows around 3.5 degrees!
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Old 11-22-2011, 04:16 AM   #3668
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mera'din View Post
I couldn't get my t3'10 uploaded as it is too big but 100kb. Silly limitations!

Anyways, it is basically the rubber setup. On the sedan I appear to be getting some rubber build up on the inside of the tires. I have heard the term death ring but i took that to mean the inner tire wearing faster than the outside. This loooks like rubber buildup.

What would shortening the camper links do? If I flex the chasis right and left the outside tire leans pretty far over due to the chasis roll I have. Could I reduce this by shortening the links? I'd say both cars have more outter tire wear than inner.
Your springs are too extreme.
Having watched that video you linked to, the cars are not getting up much speed at all as the track is very small and tight.
Try going back to kit setup and making small changes. I certainly wouldn't have my springs that soft, not even on my wet car!
On our larger asphalt track, if the back steps out through the sweeper it's due to being undersprung.
You are running low rear roll centres but high camberlinks (H1)
I would honestly go back to kit setup, you are so far away from it now that people are going to have trouble helping with what you have.
THe exceptions would be to try 2.8 and 2.6 springs and try 450 oil all round.
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Old 11-22-2011, 04:55 AM   #3669
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Swap your wheel hexs fornt to rear...I have never seen anyone use -75 hexs on the front, that alone will make the car very twitchy
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Old 11-22-2011, 05:42 AM   #3670
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiddins View Post
Your springs are too extreme.
Having watched that video you linked to, the cars are not getting up much speed at all as the track is very small and tight.
Try going back to kit setup and making small changes. I certainly wouldn't have my springs that soft, not even on my wet car!
On our larger asphalt track, if the back steps out through the sweeper it's due to being undersprung.
You are running low rear roll centres but high camberlinks (H1)
I would honestly go back to kit setup, you are so far away from it now that people are going to have trouble helping with what you have.
THe exceptions would be to try 2.8 and 2.6 springs and try 450 oil all round.
Skiddins is right. Normally you would run h1 on the front and l1 on the rear. Your shock springs front to rear is too radical, ive found the best bet is to keep the balance of the car front to rear very similar.

Having the narrow front hex's will give you loads of initial steering, as will having much harder front springs.

Try swapping the H1 and L1's over, go back to the standard hex's and try (3.0 and 2.6 springs) or (2.8 and 2.4) or (2.8 and 2.6) or (2.6 and 2.4), depends on how soft you want the car.

You seem to be running far too much droop also, this will make the car pretty unstable, transferring weight all over the place, try going to 5 and 4 or even 6 and 5.

Maybe also stand your rear shocks up one, I've found my back end goes when they are lent down all the way.

Best best as skiddins said though, would be go back to basic car setup.

TBH, it shouldnt be difficult getting the car to go well in 17.5t class! ;-)

Last edited by Mb3195; 11-22-2011 at 05:47 AM. Reason: missed a couple of things!!
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Old 11-22-2011, 08:40 AM   #3671
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Originally Posted by Mb3195 View Post
Yes it will. The car will be easier to drive, especially if the fronts are shorter than the rears.
I may have to give this a try. Would you make the rear links shorter too? The first place car had his short on all 4 sides and seemed pretty hooked up. He is of course a much better driver than I am.

I noticed on the basic rubber setup that they state using the h1/h2 roll centers. Thoughts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mb3195 View Post
How are you checking your camber? I was using the hudy setup station, I then realised with the wheels on, my camber readings were totally different. Now when I put 1.5 degrees on when checking against the wheel, if I put my gauges on, it shows around 3.5 degrees!
I use Hudy setup gauges, I may have to check out with my regular gauge! I hope not as I really like how precise the setup stands are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by con View Post
Swap your wheel hexs fornt to rear...I have never seen anyone use -75 hexs on the front, that alone will make the car very twitchy
That suggestion came from Paul Lemieux, I had the wide ones in as that is they way it came when I got it. He suggested going to the narrow ones. I will put the stockers in and see how I like it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mb3195 View Post
Skiddins is right. Normally you would run h1 on the front and l1 on the rear. Your shock springs front to rear is too radical, ive found the best bet is to keep the balance of the car front to rear very similar.
I will try putting the 2.6 back in. I tried those springs as on the Xray quick reference chart it lists softening the rear spring as a possible solution (3rd in priority). Since I don't have a softer roll bar this was next on in the chain of things to try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mb3195 View Post
Having the narrow front hex's will give you loads of initial steering, as will having much harder front springs.
This could be what is upsetting the car at the begining of the turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mb3195 View Post
Try swapping the H1 and L1's over, go back to the standard hex's and try (3.0 and 2.6 springs) or (2.8 and 2.4) or (2.8 and 2.6) or (2.6 and 2.4), depends on how soft you want the car.
Not sure on the hardness. Since it isn't a huge track, would a softer car help? I may just go back to stock springs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mb3195 View Post
You seem to be running far too much droop also, this will make the car pretty unstable, transferring weight all over the place, try going to 5 and 4 or even 6 and 5.
I have 2mm of droop in front and 3mm droop in rear. Is this really too much?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mb3195 View Post
Best best as skiddins said though, would be go back to basic car setup.
Yeah maybe, but I'm not ready to admit defeat! Just kidding. Thanks for the help guys!

I was able to get my VTA reduced, but the quality is terrible, every is still there though and easy to rear, just no color. I am having the same isses with this car it seems. Can power into the turns without loosing grip and spinning out. My Bro's car (TC5) is awesome and I can pretty much stay full throttle the entire track just gotta let go a little before the turns. I gotta reduce power so much with this car though.
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File Type: pdf vta.PDF (86.8 KB, 59 views)
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:08 AM   #3672
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[QUOTE=Mera'din;9944038]I may have to give this a try. Would you make the rear links shorter too? The first place car had his short on all 4 sides and seemed pretty hooked up. He is of course a much better driver than I am.

I noticed on the basic rubber setup that they state using the h1/h2 roll centers. Thoughts?


I use Hudy setup gauges, I may have to check out with my regular gauge! I hope not as I really like how precise the setup stands are.


I will try putting the 2.6 back in. I tried those springs as on the Xray quick reference chart it lists softening the rear spring as a possible solution (3rd in priority). Since I don't have a softer roll bar this was next on in the chain of things to try.

Not sure on the hardness. Since it isn't a huge track, would a softer car help? I may just go back to stock springs.


I have 2mm of droop in front and 3mm droop in rear. Is this really too much?


Yeah maybe, but I'm not ready to admit defeat! Just kidding. Thanks for the help guys!

QUOTE]

I've not looked at the video, but my suggestion would be to go to the 2.8 fronts, 2.6 rears or 2.6 fronts 2.4 rears. A softer car will be easier to drive, it should also generate more grip (to a point) than a harder car.

H1/H2 links on the front (long length) L1/L2 on the rear (long length). The short ones wont allow you to change direction quickly enough if you have a tight track.

With droop I just use the droop gauge, I dont find the other method accurate enough unless you have setup wheels. Try a droop gauge and go 5.5 at the front 4.5 at the rear.

Check your camber on the wheel itself - I couldnt believe how different mine was when I did it and how much better the car was also!

Also go back to the standard hexes.

DOnt pay any attention to the quick reference guide, I find alot of things it tells you to do are the opposite to what actually happens.

At the end of the day, you need to get a setup that works for you, this might be totally different to anyone elses, but if it works, who cares??
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:10 AM   #3673
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiddins View Post
Can anyone describe what each of the holes in the new upper clamps felt like when you've tried adjusting/moving betweent the different holes?

I recall several posts where someone has described what using the different positions was like but I can't find it.
What are your experiences?

Skiddins
Hi mate, longer links make the car more responsive, takes away a bit of traction but allows it to react quicker.

THe shortest links are definaitly the easiest to drive, but I dont think they are the fastest.

Funnily enough, i've really got a setup that works now, so doing some testing at Ardent on Saturday and only really planning on playing with the camber link lengths, I'll let you know how it goes.

Mark
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:24 AM   #3674
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Originally Posted by Mera'din View Post




I use Hudy setup gauges, I may have to check out with my regular gauge! I hope not as I really like how precise the setup stands are.

The hudy set up station looks fantastic, is beautifully made, comes in a lovely box and is great for initial build but its your tyres that are in contact with the track so set your camber off the wheels, you will be amazed how much better the car will drive

I'm not so complementory about the Hudy board, I've not seen a flat one yet
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:39 AM   #3675
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Originally Posted by Mb3195 View Post
H1/H2 links on the front (long length) L1/L2 on the rear (long length). The short ones wont allow you to change direction quickly enough if you have a tight track.
Check! I think I am going to revert back to the rubber tire setup sheet provided with the kit. They have the h1/h2 listed and the middle roll center blocks. If I don't get the traction I need I will change out the rears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mb3195 View Post
With droop I just use the droop gauge, I dont find the other method accurate enough unless you have setup wheels. Try a droop gauge and go 5.5 at the front 4.5 at the rear.
I do have a droop gauge and blocks. What I do is set the car down on the board with the wheels on and measure the ride height. Then I slowly lift the car sliding the ride height gauge under the car until the wheels lift off the ground. The difference is what the droop is on the car. I then take the wheels off and use the droop gauge/blocks to accurately adjust the downstops to get the droop I want. If for example the rear of the car droops 5mm and when I put it on the blocks and the guage measures 4, I move the arm up until it reaches 6. This will give me a droop of 3 since I removed 2mm of downtravel.

I pay little attention to the numbers but rather use them as a refference to get my settings. I see on the setup sheet listings of downstop values, I'd rather see them as droop values. If I do put a downstop value on there is is only the number I need to get the droop I need...make sense? I hope so cause my head hurts after typing that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mb3195 View Post
DOnt pay any attention to the quick reference guide, I find alot of things it tells you to do are the opposite to what actually happens.

Shoot! I kinda liked that sheet...if this happens do this, etc...made tuning seem kinda easy for a newb. Conditions are so drastically different that I can see how a sheet like that can be misleading sometimes.
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