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Old 09-16-2010, 11:45 AM   #121
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I'm not quoting this as a response but as an example.

I think that is some of the issue with this activity. There are so few that do it we have mixed those that do this as a hobby with those that do this as a sport. Take an activity such as playing tennis. Would you say Avg Joe plays tennis because they have dreams of becoming a professional tennis player? No. They do it because it is a fun activity. I guess where the analogy falls apart is that tennis has a bracket system so people of like abilities through the spectrum compete against each other.

I'm on my way out of the hobby to take a long break. It became overwhelming and no longer fun. I felt like I had to be competitive with people that took it much more serious than I did. I felt it necessary, right or wrong, to always keep up with equipment, etc. The whole sportsman thing became the final straw. I knew that I would get grief for racing in a sportsman class but was still off the pace of the top guys in stock. I didn't feel like there was a class left that I would enjoy.
Wow I completely know where you are coming from. I can't run with the fast guys at my track, a la Brad Johnson. I know my skill level and know the amount of time it would take for me to get a lot better. I don't have that time, but I fight myself because I know I could be a lot better. However, I have become somewhat comfortable with how good I am or am not. But my competitive nature sometimes gets the best of me...and I tend to press. I get grief (good natured of course) for not spending more time racing. Our big racing series has it's first race in a couple of weeks and I "need" to get ready for it...but I'm on the verge of being burnt...and need to step back for a bit. But you just have to realize where RC racing fits in your day to day life. For me, it's recreation...at least I try to keep it that way (as I'm thinking how much track time I need before the race ).
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Old 09-16-2010, 12:20 PM   #122
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Wouldn't you need access to the ESC manufacturers tools and software to hack the firmware? Firmware and software are different. You can't hack firmware as easily as you can software.
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Old 09-16-2010, 12:35 PM   #123
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Wouldn't you need access to the ESC manufacturers tools and software to hack the firmware? Firmware and software are different. You can't hack firmware as easily as you can software.
Really? Google "iPhone jailbreak".

Plus firmware IS software. There is just a loose difference between them. Firmware is usually software sitting directly on the hardware used to control it.

That said, I doubt people are hacking ESCs and if they are they likely aren't doing anything to make it better.
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Old 09-16-2010, 12:42 PM   #124
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Still doesn't make it as easy to hack as software.


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Really? Google "iPhone jailbreak".

Plus firmware IS software. There is just a loose difference between them. Firmware is usually software sitting directly on the hardware used to control it.
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Old 09-16-2010, 12:46 PM   #125
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Still doesn't make it as easy to hack as software.
Firmware is software and I might argue it would be easier because "firmware" is usually an API to software that contains the true logic. Firmware is usually just access to commands of the hardware. Then another layer of software tells it the commands to run and logic to use.

The other definition of difference would be the storage RAM vs ROM but that definition is also blurred. Again see iPhone its all ROM.
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Old 09-16-2010, 01:13 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by or8ital View Post
I'm not quoting this as a response but as an example.

I think that is some of the issue with this activity. There are so few that do it we have mixed those that do this as a hobby with those that do this as a sport. Take an activity such as playing tennis. Would you say Avg Joe plays tennis because they have dreams of becoming a professional tennis player? No. They do it because it is a fun activity. I guess where the analogy falls apart is that tennis has a bracket system so people of like abilities through the spectrum compete against each other.

I'm on my way out of the hobby to take a long break. It became overwhelming and no longer fun. I felt like I had to be competitive with people that took it much more serious than I did. I felt it necessary, right or wrong, to always keep up with equipment, etc. The whole sportsman thing became the final straw. I knew that I would get grief for racing in a sportsman class but was still off the pace of the top guys in stock. I didn't feel like there was a class left that I would enjoy.
Nice analysis of the situation. I couldn't agree more.

Don't let anyone else ruin the hobby for you. Just race Sportsman and have fun with it. We should all be thankful that anyone shows up to race against, not worrying about what classes other people are running.
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Old 09-16-2010, 01:13 PM   #127
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The ESC manufacturers could release a "tech" program that reads the firmware back out of the ESC and verifies that its checksum matches known, "legal" firmware. If the companies aren't able to provide that, you remove their ESC's off the list of allowed controllers until they can. It's easy.

There's a bunch of butt-hurt naysayers in this thread.
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Old 09-16-2010, 01:28 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by syndr0me View Post
The ESC manufacturers could release a "tech" program that reads the firmware back out of the ESC and verifies that its checksum matches known, "legal" firmware. If the companies aren't able to provide that, you remove their ESC's off the list of allowed controllers until they can. It's easy.

There's a bunch of butt-hurt naysayers in this thread.
+1 for logic
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Old 09-16-2010, 02:25 PM   #129
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+2, best idea I've read in this thread.

Heck, +3 for not making incorrect statements about firmware...

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+1 for logic
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Old 09-16-2010, 02:36 PM   #130
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Since this blinky LED thing was my idea, I suppose I should help find the solution to problems that don't exist as well.
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Old 09-16-2010, 02:40 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by syndr0me View Post
The ESC manufacturers could release a "tech" program that reads the firmware back out of the ESC and verifies that its checksum matches known, "legal" firmware. If the companies aren't able to provide that, you remove their ESC's off the list of allowed controllers until they can. It's easy.

There's a bunch of butt-hurt naysayers in this thread.
Look at F1 when the banned traction control. You could physically see traction control being applied on the Audi cars but extensive searches of their ECU's and programing turned up nothing but it was there. I saw a program about it a few years back, of course they denied everything but it was painfully obvious. That is in a multi million dollar organization, not hobby races. The point being made is that anything electronic with software can be circumvented and hacked. Is it an issue right now, unknown but the potential is there and the ease of doing it is great making it even more likely. Of course this only matters in spec classes, as stated before, no issues in MOD. Of course none of this matters to me until I stop getting marshaled.
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Old 09-16-2010, 03:07 PM   #132
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Look at F1 when the banned traction control. You could physically see traction control being applied on the Audi cars but extensive searches of their ECU's and programing turned up nothing but it was there. I saw a program about it a few years back, of course they denied everything but it was painfully obvious. That is in a multi million dollar organization, not hobby races. The point being made is that anything electronic with software can be circumvented and hacked. Is it an issue right now, unknown but the potential is there and the ease of doing it is great making it even more likely. Of course this only matters in spec classes, as stated before, no issues in MOD. Of course none of this matters to me until I stop getting marshaled.
There's a lot of far-fetched "what if" scenarios that could circumvent any level of tech and allow people to cheat. I think the best we can hope for is to try and tech away anything racers can do on their own. If the manufacturers want to facilitate cheating, which will always be possible, then you give them the death penalty and ban their products from sanctioned racing.

Probably the best option is to keep the "spec" classes slow, like non-sponsored slow so there's not much incentive to cheat. Then make super stock open esc (with spec motor) and mod open for both. Yes, 3 classes.
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Old 09-16-2010, 03:11 PM   #133
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Can't we just specify a slower motor, 21.5, 25.5. 40.5, whatever is needed to slow stock down appropriately? Then the boosted ESC is a non issue. About everybody already has it, the ESCs seem to be only getting closer, another year or less and I suspect they will all be quite close.

Either way, I think for most they are already much closer than brushed ever was, at least for most club racing.
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Old 09-16-2010, 03:20 PM   #134
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Isn't some common sense teching all we need. If some guy is faster down the straight or has more punch on the infield than anyone else in the class then the dude is cheating, its obvious, why would only he have this extra power? Get the tech guys to go with him and they can all then see the proper spec firmware uploaded onto his esc, job done.

Boosted vs non-boosted is so obvious. Stop bleeting about flashing lights and use your eyes.

The dude has more power, he is cheating, get it fixed, bish bash bosh, cheating stopped.

The whole point of spec is everyone has the same speed, if someone is faster with speedo's and motors being so similar its cheating, easy peasy.
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Old 09-16-2010, 03:21 PM   #135
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While I am sure the ESC companies could have a check some program with some type of special interface...last I looked at the approved speed control list, there was 20+ on there.....so thats 20+ units a track would need to interface with, every track or big race has to have a laptop setup ready to plug in every approved speed control to tech it, yeah good luck with that! Most tracks have a tough time getting the proper ride height tech stuff.....now we want them all to be running software tech? A blinking light was doable....

And the slower you make the class.....the more likely they will want to cheat in it.....people always wanna go faster Look no further than silver can....people have been cheating in that since the dawn of time....

Dave H has probably the best solution in going to a super slow motor, so that even boosted, its SLOW.....40.5!

Housey, so guilty before proven innocent. If the person was slick enough, and made the boost very subtle, it would just look like his car was better through certain parts of the track....it doesn't always have to be a straight away speed.

Call me a naysayer all ya want.....I told you this would happen. Brushless is fine, but a lot of you went to great reaches to make all these claims why it was the savior of RC racing.......should of stuck to pretty much the only true one, they are way less to take care of.....

All I know is, recession or not......we sure had bigger turn outs when everything was brushed

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