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Old 09-15-2010, 10:02 PM   #106
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I believe this thread has become nothing more than circular logic. I seriously doubt that the rebuildable brushed motor will make a serious comeback. Brushless is flat out easier to maintain and it definitely bridges the gap in speed that was sometimes painfully obvious with 27t stock. Just for the simple fact that I have to do significantly less maintenance (and no more "mojo" for 27t) with brushless has made me a better driver, because I get to drive more. It's just that simple. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love silver can racing. TCS, vta.. you name it. It stands to reason that with that motor class you would have a more level playing field, right...WRONG. There are still the same problems in that class of motor as there are in the brushless classes. Human nature is to tweak. So let us all grin and bear brushless and drive our asses off--Al
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Old 09-16-2010, 09:40 AM   #107
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I think a few of you guys are underplaying the reason people would cheat...

It's certainly more than a bowling trophy in some cases. Some events have cash payouts either from the race or from sponsors. I often paid bonuses to drivers who did well in big events......the ability for a company to put "National Title" with its advertising is big.....it sells product and lots of it. A majority of racers aspire to be sponsored......though 99.9999% will never achieve the full rides guys like Matt Francis, Paul Lemiuex or Barry Baker had/have.

But that dream of getting flown to the big races is out there......and people will do whatever they can to win it.


Nascar is a good example.....cheating is something they all do.....why, because of the money! Same thing here.....its money. Teams want to win to sell product, guys want to win to get the sponsorships.....they want the fame (and whoever said there is no fame in RC racing is nuts, sure its not Nascar, but we have plenty of famous racers.....ever raced Offroad? Remember the Matt Francis XXX-T or the Brian Kinwald XXX.....or the entire line of Dirtanitor motors or Adam Drake Engines.....I could go on and on)....there is plenty of motives for people to cheat.

Wingracer is totally right....you won't need a full blown boost profile to get an edge, just a little here or there is enough to provide an advantage.....an easy example would be that say you can create an profile that lets you complete a section of the track .05 faster......doesn't seem like much? Say the fast guys are going 10 seconds on the track.....in theory a 5 minute race would yeild 30 laps at 5 minutes flat....the guy is now is now 1.5 seconds faster.....only 1.5 seconds! Guys, I've seen Amains at big races where the entire field was seperated by less than 2 seconds...10 racers all within 1.5 seconds....

With the power of the internet it would not take much for a hack to circulate around......of course that gives the companies the ability to try to combat it.

Like I said, its GOING to happen.....cheating has been going on RC for the 20+ years I've been in it........and I am sure it will for the next 20 years....

Later EddieO
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:07 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO View Post

A majority of racers aspire to be sponsored......

O
Do we? I'm 39 with a good job. I do this as a hobby, not as a stab at being a paid RC car driver.

Cheaters will cheat regardless of whether sponsorship is on the line or not. It is just part of their character or lack thereof. They might be more blatant the prize is something better than a bowling trophy the underlying characteristic is still the same.

I'm not saying nothing should be done to try to stop cheating. I also don't think it makes sense to propose widespread changes to address something that has yet to show itself as a major problem. All that does is penalize the people who play by the rules. Perhaps calling out known cheats and if they don't change getting them out of the races instead of changing rules every other minute to passively try to curb the problem is an option?
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:07 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by EddieO View Post

Like I said, its GOING to happen.....cheating has been going on RC for the 20+ years I've been in it........and I am sure it will for the next 20 years....

Later EddieO



You need to go race a R/c car Eddie .....
Sense brushless has been around the cheats are non existence now days....

Due to the fact a 17.5 is so fast, there is just no advantage to making it even faster .....

FACT:

Today
Stock is just as fast as mod ....
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:27 AM   #110
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In offroad its close, in onroad, without boost its not that close......even use an open profile in 17.5 Super Stock Hara was a lap faster in mod.....take away the boost and he is two laps faster in mod...

The point isn't about being just as fast mod though.......the point being is 10 guys running spec 17.5, but one guy is running boost.......he is faster, regardless of class or type of racing...

And I dunno about them being not existant either, I saw a guy at TRCR intentionlly overcharging his LiPo for as he said to his buddy....I get more punch...


Later EddieO
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:34 AM   #111
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Though brushless is taking over, brushed is here to stay for awhile atleast. Not high end brushed but silvercan is starting to show up, F1 and other spec classes along with RTR cars and basic kits. I think the point is that the brushless motors are here to stay and will eventually push the brushed out but the brushless ESC seem to be the issue. If cheating on a large scale ever does rear its ugly head you can be sure ROAR will require locked/closed ESC's for spec racing. ESC's that can not even be attached to a computer, no USB port or anything. I personally think it is only a matter of time before cheating becomes rampant. It may already be now but since the technology is moving so fast, tech is hard to stay caught up.
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:35 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO View Post
In offroad its close, in onroad, without boost its not that close......even use an open profile in 17.5 Super Stock Hara was a lap faster in mod.....take away the boost and he is two laps faster in mod...

The point isn't about being just as fast mod though.......the point being is 10 guys running spec 17.5, but one guy is running boost.......he is faster, regardless of class or type of racing...

And I dunno about them being not existant either, I saw a guy at TRCR intentionlly overcharging his LiPo for as he said to his buddy....I get more punch...



Later EddieO



motor power & boost is the same on or off the road...

With boost a 17.5 is as fast as my 8.5 with out boost...


And that guy with the overcharged battery ?

His battery is now keeping company with all the Thunder Power batteries outside in TRCR's Li-Po graveyard...
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:43 AM   #113
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Well, I think you're not making sense......maybe cherry sense.

There is a difference between 17.5 and mod in onroad.....Hara ran both at Vegas....his mod time was a lap faster......and that was boosted in 17.5....take away his boost, and he is two laps slower.....

But the point being, we are not arguing how mod is so close to stock now in power.......the point is, 10 guys racing spec 17.5.....one guy is cheating with software, and is basically running boosted 17.5.....you can't tell me that his car is not going to be clearly faster.....

And while it probably will toast his battery........still produces more voltage...

Later EddieO
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:49 AM   #114
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Use to be a advantage if you stock motor was faster , now days ?

No advantage anymore ...

A sedan outdoors on big parking lot ?
Sure...


4.5 would be way faster than a 17.5 with boost ...


Just that most Sedan drivers can't handle a 4.5 cept Hara ....
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:54 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Owen RaCing View Post
Speed Vision? That's about as old school as Brushed motors
Old School, but when it was Speedvision it did not SUCK.
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Old 09-16-2010, 11:01 AM   #116
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Do we? I'm 39 with a good job. I do this as a hobby, not as a stab at being a paid RC car driver.
I'm not quoting this as a response but as an example.

I think that is some of the issue with this activity. There are so few that do it we have mixed those that do this as a hobby with those that do this as a sport. Take an activity such as playing tennis. Would you say Avg Joe plays tennis because they have dreams of becoming a professional tennis player? No. They do it because it is a fun activity. I guess where the analogy falls apart is that tennis has a bracket system so people of like abilities through the spectrum compete against each other.

I'm on my way out of the hobby to take a long break. It became overwhelming and no longer fun. I felt like I had to be competitive with people that took it much more serious than I did. I felt it necessary, right or wrong, to always keep up with equipment, etc. The whole sportsman thing became the final straw. I knew that I would get grief for racing in a sportsman class but was still off the pace of the top guys in stock. I didn't feel like there was a class left that I would enjoy.
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Old 09-16-2010, 11:12 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Wild Cherry View Post
Use to be a advantage if you stock motor was faster , now days ?

No advantage anymore ...

A sedan outdoors on big parking lot ?
Sure...


4.5 would be way faster than a 17.5 with boost ...


Just that most Sedan drivers can't handle a 4.5 cept Hara ....
On all but the stickiest dirt track, you can't lay all the power down. On Carpet you can actually use it ALL. So a heavily boosted 2wd buggy isn't really any faster because it couldn't use all the unboosted power to begin with.

On-Road is (fortunately in my opinion) NOTHING like Off-road. Traction is abundant, and any difference in rip is noticeable in drivers of equal skill. EddieO's argument is spot on. And to those who say it can't be hacked, please, code is code people. Some people can do it, and some already have.

For 12th scale it's taken all the turbo and timing in the world to bring brushless/Lipo back to 4600/brushed speeds. Please don't make me go back to dragging the unboosted anchor around the track.........
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Old 09-16-2010, 11:19 AM   #118
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The whole sportsman thing became the final straw. I knew that I would get grief for racing in a sportsman class but was still off the pace of the top guys in stock. I didn't feel like there was a class left that I would enjoy.
Who would give you grief for running a sportsman class? You are the perfect example of a sportsman driver......
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Old 09-16-2010, 11:32 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO View Post
I think a few of you guys are underplaying the reason people would cheat...

It's certainly more than a bowling trophy in some cases. Some events have cash payouts either from the race or from sponsors. I often paid bonuses to drivers who did well in big events......the ability for a company to put "National Title" with its advertising is big.....it sells product and lots of it. A majority of racers aspire to be sponsored......though 99.9999% will never achieve the full rides guys like Matt Francis, Paul Lemiuex or Barry Baker had/have.

But that dream of getting flown to the big races is out there......and people will do whatever they can to win it.


Nascar is a good example.....cheating is something they all do.....why, because of the money! Same thing here.....its money. Teams want to win to sell product, guys want to win to get the sponsorships.....they want the fame (and whoever said there is no fame in RC racing is nuts, sure its not Nascar, but we have plenty of famous racers.....ever raced Offroad? Remember the Matt Francis XXX-T or the Brian Kinwald XXX.....or the entire line of Dirtanitor motors or Adam Drake Engines.....I could go on and on)....there is plenty of motives for people to cheat.

Wingracer is totally right....you won't need a full blown boost profile to get an edge, just a little here or there is enough to provide an advantage.....an easy example would be that say you can create an profile that lets you complete a section of the track .05 faster......doesn't seem like much? Say the fast guys are going 10 seconds on the track.....in theory a 5 minute race would yeild 30 laps at 5 minutes flat....the guy is now is now 1.5 seconds faster.....only 1.5 seconds! Guys, I've seen Amains at big races where the entire field was seperated by less than 2 seconds...10 racers all within 1.5 seconds....

With the power of the internet it would not take much for a hack to circulate around......of course that gives the companies the ability to try to combat it.

Like I said, its GOING to happen.....cheating has been going on RC for the 20+ years I've been in it........and I am sure it will for the next 20 years....

Later EddieO

I get what you're saying...really. But I guess we differ on how we define "fame". If fame is selling RC products, or being in hobby magazines, then sure there are "famous" RC drivers. (And Adam Drakes wife is nice looking btw ) But being RC famous isn't a goal of mine.

And if I lose to someone cheating it won't ruin my life or my felling for the hobby/sport...it's just a hobby.
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Old 09-16-2010, 11:33 AM   #120
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The whole sportsman thing became the final straw. I knew that I would get grief for racing in a sportsman class but was still off the pace of the top guys in stock. I didn't feel like there was a class left that I would enjoy.
With many tracks adopting the "ROAR Sportsman Spec" rules for regular 17.5 Rubber TC; maybe that removes the stigma of running "Sportsman". Not that there's anything wrong with running Sportsman.
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