R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-14-2010, 10:32 AM   #76
Tech Elite
 
JLock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: North Dallas, TX
Posts: 4,455
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingracer View Post
WAY too many classes. Unless you want five people at most in any class.
So, what is your solution? Easy to make your comment but what are your suggestions? Here is how it is in many places for electric offroad:

sportsman buggy
expert buggy
sportsman truck
expert truck
stock slash
2wd SCT/CORR truck
4wd SCT/CORR truck
4wd buggy
Mod buggy
Mod truck

Too many classes? You never hear about offroad guys complaining about too many classes. In fact, it seems they are looking to add more classes as to satisfy the many levels of skills and types of vehicles amongst their racers.

We can go on and on in these threads about this and that, but, what are some viable solutions? A statement in Randy Pike's recent post here says it best:

We need to look at this differently. We're not ONLY trying to retain the current racing crowd but make it more enticing for the new group of racers. RC needs to expand not just sustain.

We, as the more established racers in r/c, need to stop thinking in old-school terms as far as solutions and need to think in current times. What used to work back in the 80s, 90s and early 00s don't work the same today. Going back to cutting comms, matching cells, and zapping cans, no thanks!!! But, having ESCs with set timing profiles for different modes of racing is a huge step in the right direction. R/C manufacturers having a decent cost "spec" car (entry level for new racers with basic tuning adjustments) could be another idea. Just some food for thought.
__________________
Texas 5
It's not what you know; it's what you can prove.
The only thing that is for sure is that nothing is for sure!!!
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
There are 2 things in life that are infinite: the universe and stupidity.
JLock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 11:18 AM   #77
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 332
Trader Rating: 11 (100%+)
Default

The only issue I have with the current ESC's and programmable features is the hacking. Heck I can Jailbreak my i Phone by visiting a website. It wont be long until all you have to do is download a "modified" firmware that will enable everything you want but still flash the red LED showing no boost or turbo or show something entirely different if pulled up on a computer. The potential for massive cheating is great and when the temptation is there, people tend to jump on it. How easy would it be to have a throttle combination that enables or disables the modified firmware? Get your car tech'd, place car on track. Walk to the drivers stand and then hit the code, 3 quick forward, 2 rev and 1 fwd on the throttle, now modified firmware enabled. Win race, reverse code, modified firmware disabled. You could never defeat that.
__________________
AE SC-10
HPI Blitz ESE (17.5 ROAR)
HPI Blitz RTR
HPI E-Firestorm
Traxxas Stampede
Chip73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 12:13 PM   #78
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 436
Default

Truck is just silly.

Buggy was the kool stuff and allways will be.

Basically the same cars too.
MatsNorway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 12:13 PM   #79
Tech Elite
 
JLock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: North Dallas, TX
Posts: 4,455
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip73 View Post
The only issue I have with the current ESC's and programmable features is the hacking. Heck I can Jailbreak my i Phone by visiting a website. It wont be long until all you have to do is download a "modified" firmware that will enable everything you want but still flash the red LED showing no boost or turbo or show something entirely different if pulled up on a computer. The potential for massive cheating is great and when the temptation is there, people tend to jump on it. How easy would it be to have a throttle combination that enables or disables the modified firmware? Get your car tech'd, place car on track. Walk to the drivers stand and then hit the code, 3 quick forward, 2 rev and 1 fwd on the throttle, now modified firmware enabled. Win race, reverse code, modified firmware disabled. You could never defeat that.
I hear what you are saying on this standpoint. And yes, it won't be long before one of the computer genius guru kids figure this out and do what you have stated. But, if you have to do something like that in order to win speaks much about one's character (which is none in this scenario). If you have to cheat to win your plastic bowling trophy or plexiglass plaque at a race, you are a sick puppy that needs help.
__________________
Texas 5
It's not what you know; it's what you can prove.
The only thing that is for sure is that nothing is for sure!!!
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
There are 2 things in life that are infinite: the universe and stupidity.
JLock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 12:32 PM   #80
Tech Regular
 
Micro-E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Orange, CA
Posts: 329
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip73 View Post
... It wont be long until all you have to do is download a "modified" firmware that will enable everything you want but still flash the red LED showing no boost or turbo or show something entirely different if pulled up on a computer. The potential for massive cheating is great and when the temptation is there...
The same people that would think of doing this are probably the same people who cheat today by other means.
__________________
- Erik
Micro-E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 12:44 PM   #81
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 436
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLock View Post
I hear what you are saying on this standpoint. And yes, it won't be long before one of the computer genius guru kids figure this out and do what you have stated. But, if you have to do something like that in order to win speaks much about one's character (which is none in this scenario). If you have to cheat to win your plastic bowling trophy or plexiglass plaque at a race, you are a sick puppy that needs help.
How hard is it to check firmware?

Isnt it just a usb mini connector or something.
MatsNorway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 02:06 PM   #82
Tech Champion
 
liljohn1064's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Deerfield, WI
Posts: 5,582
Trader Rating: 17 (100%+)
Default

Institute claimer rules. I can buy your whole winning car (or just the motor and/or esc) by putting my money where my mouth is at the end of the event. Of course your competitor shows up next week with a brand new winning set up...
__________________
John Higgins former student of The Ian Ruggles Negative Reinforcement Driving School. The "Team Principal".
liljohn1064 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 02:08 PM   #83
Tech Apprentice
 
kyle133's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Essex Ontario, Canada
Posts: 89
Default

bring back the brushes- NO! god bless brushless motors and lipos. i cant beleive someone compaired cutting comms, brushes, zapping cans, and other brushed motor voodoo to being the same pain as plugging in a speed control and pressing buttons...
__________________
ACTION HOBBIES KINGSVILLE
MT POCKETS RACING
kyle133 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 02:19 PM   #84
Team Tekin
 
Randy_Pike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Norcal
Posts: 9,702
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Send a message via Yahoo to Randy_Pike
Default

Hacking the software is never going to be "impossible" but it's highly unlikely. There's only a handful of guys that are going to know what they're looking at.

The timing esc's aren't killing Onroad racing, the overall cost and time to setup the cars is.

Build a TC that is low maintenance and easy to setup, forgiving to drive and won't break because you tapped a board. Make it look like something you see on Speedvision....they will buy it.
__________________
"Things may come to those who wait, but only the things left by those who hustle." Abraham Lincoln

Tekin,Protek,A-Main Hobbies,JConcepts,Avid RC,Yokomo,MIP,SikLidz,FactoryRC, www.randypikerc.com

Last edited by Randy_Pike; 09-14-2010 at 04:55 PM.
Randy_Pike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 02:21 PM   #85
Regional Moderator
 
CarbonJoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,661
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy_Pike View Post
The timing esc's are killing Onroad racing
I think you meant "aren't", right? Or is it a Freudian slip?
__________________
*** The Gate - Celebrating 8 years at the same location ***
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits. - Albert Einstein
Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car
CarbonJoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 02:22 PM   #86
Tech Elite
 
EddieO's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,414
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Default

USB can check what profile is being ran, but if that profile has been modified.....so it says its profile one, but isn't. No type of track tech available is going to be able to see it. The unit would have to be sent back to the company who made it to be examined......but like someone pointed out already, things could be figured out to quickly reset it...

All I know is guys every day crack software that has TONS of encryption and such.....I doubt any ESC has anything special to prevent it, you will probably be able to just download and open it in notepad.....write in your new specs and upload to the ESC......

The tough part really isnt the software, its finding a way to pull it out of the unit.....on top of that, every ESC will be a different interface....

Mark my words, someone will do it.....I'll just stick to mod where its pointless....


Later EddieO
__________________
www.teambrood.com
EddieO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 03:35 PM   #87
Tech Addict
 
Miller_Time's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 678
Trader Rating: 11 (92%+)
Default

I'm sure it's already out there. Honestly it isn't that difficult to do, and remember that Microsoft called their Windows XP Activation process "unhackable". Some of the best programmers on the planet working months on solely that project and it was cracked the same day it was released.

The only thing stopping it from being widespread in RC electronics is that the number of people wanting to do it isn't that high. But it will happen, if it isn't already done.
__________________
www.HobbyStop.com
Miller_Time is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 03:52 PM   #88
Tech Lord
 
wingracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,861
Trader Rating: 24 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLock View Post
So, what is your solution? Easy to make your comment but what are your suggestions? Here is how it is in many places for electric offroad:

sportsman buggy
expert buggy
sportsman truck
expert truck
stock slash
2wd SCT/CORR truck
4wd SCT/CORR truck
4wd buggy
Mod buggy
Mod truck

Too many classes? You never hear about offroad guys complaining about too many classes. In fact, it seems they are looking to add more classes as to satisfy the many levels of skills and types of vehicles amongst their racers.
I only see two different divisions per vehicle type there. That is a lot less than you propose.

Let's say there are fifty TC drivers that will go to a certain race. With two classes, let's say stock and mod, that's a decent pool of drivers to pull from to have some good competition. If you split it into 5 different classes, that's not a big race anymore. If all you have to do to make the A is sign up, I'm not interested.

Now if you have 300 racers coming to an event, great. Break it down all over the place. Though I would still prefer to see just a couple classes. I would much rather race against 150 people than 20.
__________________
Sean. Certified speed crazed mowron.
Team Shepherd USA
www.ashfordhobby.com
wingracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 04:04 PM   #89
Tech Lord
 
wingracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,861
Trader Rating: 24 (100%+)
Default

To continue my previous post, see answers (or questions) in red.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLock View Post
I am not one to advocate bringing back the brushed motors, but there should be an emphasis in cleaning up the current classes that are currently on the docket. In my opinion, I feel that the classes should be as follows:

Amateur stock - 21.5/25.5 brushless, fixed timing ESCs, no manufacturer sponsorship of any kind as far as the racer is concerned

Stock - 17.5 brushless, fixed timing ESCs, no manufacturer sponsorship of any kind as far as the racer is concerned Why split these two? They are basically the same thing. Anyone that can get a 17.5 around should have no problem with a 21.5

Pro/Super Stock - 13.5 brushless, open ESCs, no more than 25% manufacturer sponsorship

Mod - 8.5/10.5 brushless, open ESCs, no more than 50% manufacturer sponsorship Why this split? Again, basically the same thing. And how exactly do you intend to enforce ANY sponsorship rule, much less a percentage based one.

Super Mod - 7.5 to lowest wind brushless, open ESCs, full factory sponsorship Why can't I run an 8.5 here?

This is a way to keep the sponsored guys from running in the amateur classes and hopefully a way for the amatuers to work their way up (a ladder of progression). Now, if an amatuer wants to go for broke and run with the big boys, they can have at it. But, what you want is to keep the guys with partial paid rides and tire/battery/motor/ESC out of what should be the developmental classes. Why? unlike the old days, the pros run the same equipment we do now (especially with 0 timing esc's). So what if one wants to run a different class? Nearly every time I put my car on the track, I'm racing against world and national champions with full paid deals. I can hack it. That being said, I don't have any problem with a stock class that exempts any full pros, but it doesn't need to be split into degrees of sponsorship and two or three different motor combos. Pick a set of rules for "stock" and pick a set of rules for "mod" (which doesn't necessarily have to be ANY motor) and go with it.
__________________
Sean. Certified speed crazed mowron.
Team Shepherd USA
www.ashfordhobby.com
wingracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2010, 04:56 PM   #90
Team Tekin
 
Randy_Pike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Norcal
Posts: 9,702
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Send a message via Yahoo to Randy_Pike
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarbonJoe View Post
I think you meant "aren't", right? Or is it a Freudian slip?
Cheers! post edited.
__________________
"Things may come to those who wait, but only the things left by those who hustle." Abraham Lincoln

Tekin,Protek,A-Main Hobbies,JConcepts,Avid RC,Yokomo,MIP,SikLidz,FactoryRC, www.randypikerc.com
Randy_Pike is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
THE TRACK RACEWAY Apex Mid Atlantic RC Racing 28983 Yesterday 07:08 AM
The Big Locked Thread donitaROSE Manila Racers 89718 03-26-2015 08:17 AM
Been out of the Rc scene for a year & I finally hit the track this past weekend -HELP civic619 Electric On-Road 8 11-01-2005 12:31 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 05:21 PM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net