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Old 09-13-2010, 02:16 PM   #61
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More than that Eddie ,.

Its more about how you can make even more money at the events by creating all these stock class's we see now ..

Its all about the money , not about the quality of the racing program...
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Old 09-13-2010, 02:20 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
I think the IIC pretty much showed that more than 8 guys can run Mod TC. The separation between TQ and #29 in Mod, SS, and Stock TC was just about 3 laps give or take a second or two in all three.

The Mod guys were not breaking, hitting stuff, or appearing as though they were fish out of water. All the mod guys drove great and always within their abilities. Sure some were faster than others but this was no different for the other TC classes.

When people race mod they can be satisfied knowing that their speed is directly related to their abilities rather than whether or not they had a fast or slow motor, the right ESC and program, and the perfect gear ratio.
I agree 100 percent.
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Old 09-13-2010, 02:45 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by EddieO View Post
I just laugh at these threads.....

I am not advocating switching back either, I cut enough damn comms on crawler motors.....but like I said 4+ years ago, we weren't going to solve anything.....just shift stuff from one thing to another.

I went to my first RC race in 2 years......I got to watch 5+ guys switch motors because of overheating issues or they simply weren't fast....I got to watch one of my former drivers, spend over 30 minutes switching a motor and reprogamming his ESC.....30 minutes to change a motor? Really? Wasn't this supposed to be the time he got to save from a brushed motor so he could be tuning his chassis? I could of completely rebuilt and reinstalled any brushed motor in that time, probably 10 minutes less...

And I dunno how much its saving us.....I just read a thread over on hobbytalk for an oval race where people were all buying new speedos at the event just to be fast. I've been racing for 23+ years......and I can't ever remember someone buying a new speedo at event to "go faster"......

So while we leave our lathes at home now.....and all those little brushed tools.......now we got rotor checkers, can meters, and run devices.....Dynos, yeah those are still here too....just converted to run brushless....just wait till Fantom and CE both release the new brushless dynos they have in the works......we got graded rotors too....good stuff, I thought these things were all the same? Pretty cool that they cost as much as a tuned stock from EA, Putnam, Express or Brood did....

And a blinking light is our tech that its in spec mode? So what if I can get it to blink but still be a timing ramp profile? Is there gonna be a software tech at the tech booth to analyze it? At most races, the tech guys have trouble measuring ride height....

Like I said, I am not interested in switching back either......I've been having fun tinkering with these....I like the new ROAR rules too, not a single thing that says a 10.5, 13.5, 17.5, or 21.5 can't be modified.....at least that I can find. Just no intermixing parts from other motors.

And yes, I know I am a criminal......if you feel the need to point that out to debate with me, then so be it....

Later EddieO
Pretty much You forgot the $90.00 in sensor wires though
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Old 09-13-2010, 03:33 PM   #64
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Who's going to host the race- open sedan, open 1/12?


And I never said that there weren't people who could handle mod. There are, but most of them race stock classes anyway.
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Old 09-13-2010, 03:43 PM   #65
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Can't we trim the classes back to 3 pan, 3 sedan? Then we could use the extra time to run triple A's at big events.

I regret not running more motor in mod at IIC. I finally tried it in the main and it was so much fun. If I could do it over again, I'd have dropped stock (where I made the show) and treated mod as more than just an afterthought. Watching the guys race that class inspired me.
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Old 09-13-2010, 05:40 PM   #66
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Nobody's going back to brushed motors anytime soon. We all must remember how good we really have it now a days. No more battery matching, no motor balance trays, no more cutting comms, polishing bushings, aligning brush hoods, no more dynos and zappers,etc. No thanks.

The racing public demanded faster racing, and companies like Tekin made it so.

ROAR requested a slower "spec" no timing software, Tekin and other companies obliged and made it happen. If you watched the "spec" classes running the no timing software you'd agree this was step in the right direction. The racing was super close and nobody had the advantage power wise. The cars may have had more top speed than 27t brushed did but that could be cured with a motor wind change for next year.

We need to look at this differently. We're not ONLY trying to retain the current racing crowd but make it more enticing for the new group of racers. RC needs to expand not just sustain.

My personal opinion to why TC is dying is cost of the cars, cost of the maintenance and the fact that they're over complicated for the average racer to setup and compete with. Short Course has exploded becauuse the guy that has 4-5 hours a week can throw down a car/truck and run without feeling overwhelmed with car setup. If onroad can develope a class/car that can offer this simplicty while being able to run out in front of their house it may grow. Until then it will be a small portion of the market.
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Old 09-13-2010, 05:52 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by ~McSmooth~ View Post
Trying to solve everything with "make everyone run open mod" is just as stupid as bringing back brushed motors.

What's equally as stupid is that there's still no restriction on motors.

Every form of racing, even at it's top level, has a restriction on motors. Even NHRA Top Fuel does. Why are electric R/C cars so different? Why is mod treated as some Divine Entity that can't be altered or eliminated?

I've mentioned this over and over again. The problem is that we've increased the size of the "fuel tank" nearly 5X since the rules for electric racing were created in the 70s.

Imagine how fast the onroad nitro cars would go if we increased their fuel tank capacity by 5X, and said "put in the biggest engine you can to use it all up in 5 minutes".

I couldn't give a crap about the 8 people in this country that can handle a mod touring car or 1/12th scale and what they want to race. They don't pay for most of their equipment and/or travel anyway, and we nimrods (who basically fund it) just sit around and let them dictate what gets run.
A motor cap for mod sounds fine.

4.0 motor cap, works just fine. (I'd say 4.5, but those speed passion guys need some punch. )

Motor size is capped at "540" brushless can. Us mod guys can have fun and handle our stuff just fine. You stock guys wan't us to slow down, and it is BS. We don't try to raid your class and speed it up. We do try to advocate for modified, but it is america, we are free to do that kinda stuff.
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Old 09-13-2010, 06:22 PM   #68
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While I agree the battery stuff has gotten a ton simpler....

I dunno on the motor stuff. I saw multiple people on laptops trying to figure out profiles.....that's time that supposed to be gained to chassis setup...like I said, it just moved from one thing to the next....

Dyno's are still being used.....right now they are just converted Turbodyno or Fantom dynos......but within time we will see the new Fantom unit and probably the new CE unit at some point. They will become the normal again, just like they were.....I dunno about this whole dyno thing though with brushed, I brought my dyno to TWO big races....2004 Snowbirds and 2005 Cleveland.....didn't even use it at Snowbirds and I used it once to try something Oscar showed me with Tosolini's 1/12th Scale motor.......didn't win anything at either race. All our other titles were won without a dyno anywhere in sight....

No zapper.....well, yet......mark my words, yet.

I do agree we need to find a cheaper entry level way for guys to get into onroad, but every RTR has failed miserably.....I think part of it is how fast most touring car laps are compared to offroad. In offroad, even though yer off the pace, you finish maybe 2 laps down.......in onroad its not uncommon to be 5+ laps off....so the guys look for the logical things to blame.

I also agree about the ease of setup......an offroad car is much more forgiving to setup mistakes.....you can eyeball camber and toe.....and not worry much about it. Try doing that with an onroad car......disaster.

Later EddieO
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Old 09-13-2010, 06:34 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy_Pike View Post
Nobody's going back to brushed motors anytime soon. We all must remember how good we really have it now a days. No more battery matching, no motor balance trays, no more cutting comms, polishing bushings, aligning brush hoods, no more dynos and zappers,etc. No thanks.

The racing public demanded faster racing, and companies like Tekin made it so.

ROAR requested a slower "spec" no timing software, Tekin and other companies obliged and made it happen. If you watched the "spec" classes running the no timing software you'd agree this was step in the right direction. The racing was super close and nobody had the advantage power wise. The cars may have had more top speed than 27t brushed did but that could be cured with a motor wind change for next year.

We need to look at this differently. We're not ONLY trying to retain the current racing crowd but make it more enticing for the new group of racers. RC needs to expand not just sustain.

My personal opinion to why TC is dying is cost of the cars, cost of the maintenance and the fact that they're over complicated for the average racer to setup and compete with. Short Course has exploded becauuse the guy that has 4-5 hours a week can throw down a car/truck and run without feeling overwhelmed with car setup. If onroad can develope a class/car that can offer this simplicty while being able to run out in front of their house it may grow. Until then it will be a small portion of the market.
+1
I understand why a lot of racers like Sedans, but I also see why 12th is coming back.
For us 40+ hour regular work week Sunday racers, 12th scale is just so much easier to deal with.
Low maintenance, low cost, and much, much simpler to operate.
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Old 09-13-2010, 07:46 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO View Post
I just laugh at these threads.....

I am not advocating switching back either, I cut enough damn comms on crawler motors.....but like I said 4+ years ago, we weren't going to solve anything.....just shift stuff from one thing to another.

I went to my first RC race in 2 years......I got to watch 5+ guys switch motors because of overheating issues or they simply weren't fast....I got to watch one of my former drivers, spend over 30 minutes switching a motor and reprogamming his ESC.....30 minutes to change a motor? Really? Wasn't this supposed to be the time he got to save from a brushed motor so he could be tuning his chassis? I could of completely rebuilt and reinstalled any brushed motor in that time, probably 10 minutes less...



Later EddieO
hey Eddie two things,

one, yes you warned "us" that it would be a esc war, while we laughed at you, turns out you were correct and I gave you props with a thread saying so, of course like most threads it turned to crap rather quickly.

second, there is no reason for it to take 30 minutes to change a motor, and reprogram it. at least not once you understand whats going on and how to do it. not slaming, just saying.

probably see you this sunday. think I owe you a beer or something.
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Last edited by skypilot; 09-13-2010 at 07:56 PM.
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Old 09-13-2010, 07:50 PM   #71
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here locally while killing time and upping the post count, I suggested not having classes, just everyone show up, install whatever gear you wanted and go qualifiy, (with resorts of course) the top 8 would be in race #1, the next 8 would be in race 2, the next 8 race 3 and so on, that way no ones ego would be busted by having to say I was in the b or c main, now when asked you could reply,

"I finished 2nd in MY race"
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Old 09-13-2010, 07:55 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Wild Cherry View Post
More than that Eddie ,.

Its more about how you can make even more money at the events by creating all these stock class's we see now ..

Its all about the money , not about the quality of the racing program...
shouldn't you be on a off road thread....

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Old 09-13-2010, 08:07 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Davidka View Post
There is an easy fix. Abolish the stock class, everyone race modified.

Many will need to get honest with themselves about their skills and how much power they can actually handle, along with accepting that an A-main is going to be harder to achieve and racing will be healthier for it. Look at nitro.

There is not, and never will be a compelling reason to bring back brushed motors.
..agreed..... just set a high turn motor limit for stock and run any brushless esc you want.......everyone needs to man up.........run rubber/ foam, mod/stock, thats it.......you either drive your way to the A or get your butt kicked in a lower main.........
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:32 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by MikeXray View Post
http://www.redrc.net/2010/09/speed-p...rs/#more-35135

This SP car looks like a good formula for a beginner car.....
Guess what that SP car was cloned from........hint: you'll know the answer on September 25th. Brownie's started this class and had TWO newbies on the very first race day. It's a great formula and has a $150 price tag.
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:33 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by EddieO View Post
I just laugh at these threads.....

I am not advocating switching back either, I cut enough damn comms on crawler motors.....but like I said 4+ years ago, we weren't going to solve anything.....just shift stuff from one thing to another.

I went to my first RC race in 2 years......I got to watch 5+ guys switch motors because of overheating issues or they simply weren't fast....I got to watch one of my former drivers, spend over 30 minutes switching a motor and reprogamming his ESC.....30 minutes to change a motor? Really? Wasn't this supposed to be the time he got to save from a brushed motor so he could be tuning his chassis? I could of completely rebuilt and reinstalled any brushed motor in that time, probably 10 minutes less...

And I dunno how much its saving us.....I just read a thread over on hobbytalk for an oval race where people were all buying new speedos at the event just to be fast. I've been racing for 23+ years......and I can't ever remember someone buying a new speedo at event to "go faster"......

So while we leave our lathes at home now.....and all those little brushed tools.......now we got rotor checkers, can meters, and run devices.....Dynos, yeah those are still here too....just converted to run brushless....just wait till Fantom and CE both release the new brushless dynos they have in the works......we got graded rotors too....good stuff, I thought these things were all the same? Pretty cool that they cost as much as a tuned stock from EA, Putnam, Express or Brood did....

And a blinking light is our tech that its in spec mode? So what if I can get it to blink but still be a timing ramp profile? Is there gonna be a software tech at the tech booth to analyze it? At most races, the tech guys have trouble measuring ride height....

Like I said, I am not interested in switching back either......I've been having fun tinkering with these....I like the new ROAR rules too, not a single thing that says a 10.5, 13.5, 17.5, or 21.5 can't be modified.....at least that I can find. Just no intermixing parts from other motors.

And yes, I know I am a criminal......if you feel the need to point that out to debate with me, then so be it....

Later EddieO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
I think the IIC pretty much showed that more than 8 guys can run Mod TC. The separation between TQ and #29 in Mod, SS, and Stock TC was just about 3 laps give or take a second or two in all three.

The Mod guys were not breaking, hitting stuff, or appearing as though they were fish out of water. All the mod guys drove great and always within their abilities. Sure some were faster than others but this was no different for the other TC classes.

When people race mod they can be satisfied knowing that their speed is directly related to their abilities rather than whether or not they had a fast or slow motor, the right ESC and program, and the perfect gear ratio.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO View Post
5 classes for touring car? Wow...

I think the main thing a lot of people need to get over is the "I wanna be in the A main too" syndrome.....and race directors just fall for it constantly by creating all these expert, sportsman, masters, etc classes...

Multiple classes can somewhat function at a big race.

The other flaw in the idea is trying to keep track of sponsorships.....I proposed a similar system, which would of needed all the companies on board.....good luck with that. In the effort to win at all costs, rules will be bent.....and often.

Later EddieO
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO View Post
While I agree the battery stuff has gotten a ton simpler....

I dunno on the motor stuff. I saw multiple people on laptops trying to figure out profiles.....that's time that supposed to be gained to chassis setup...like I said, it just moved from one thing to the next....

Dyno's are still being used.....right now they are just converted Turbodyno or Fantom dynos......but within time we will see the new Fantom unit and probably the new CE unit at some point. They will become the normal again, just like they were.....I dunno about this whole dyno thing though with brushed, I brought my dyno to TWO big races....2004 Snowbirds and 2005 Cleveland.....didn't even use it at Snowbirds and I used it once to try something Oscar showed me with Tosolini's 1/12th Scale motor.......didn't win anything at either race. All our other titles were won without a dyno anywhere in sight....

No zapper.....well, yet......mark my words, yet.

I do agree we need to find a cheaper entry level way for guys to get into onroad, but every RTR has failed miserably.....I think part of it is how fast most touring car laps are compared to offroad. In offroad, even though yer off the pace, you finish maybe 2 laps down.......in onroad its not uncommon to be 5+ laps off....so the guys look for the logical things to blame.

I also agree about the ease of setup......an offroad car is much more forgiving to setup mistakes.....you can eyeball camber and toe.....and not worry much about it. Try doing that with an onroad car......disaster.

Later EddieO
Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot View Post
here locally while killing time and upping the post count, I suggested not having classes, just everyone show up, install whatever gear you wanted and go qualifiy, (with resorts of course) the top 8 would be in race #1, the next 8 would be in race 2, the next 8 race 3 and so on, that way no ones ego would be busted by having to say I was in the b or c main, now when asked you could reply,

"I finished 2nd in MY race"
Awesome stuff!!
Screw sedan....run 1/12th!!! Sike!! Just give me a 13.5BL in either medium and I'm happy
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