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Old 09-12-2010, 07:40 PM   #16
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most of the clubs i've been to here in the uk have no stock class, just mod

i've run modified brushed motors for over 15 years.. In the next month i am purchasing my first brushless system and my heart gushes at the thought of the low maintenance of brushless motors

you mean no more comm cutting, no more aligning, no more brushes, no more expensive additives to drop into the motors, no more dipping the motor into water to run it in, no more regular replacement motors? all i have to do is clean it and lube the bearings? excuse me i need to go change my jeans

this applies doubly, trebly for bashing duties

i don't race anymore but i might get back into it if i can still be competitive. I find the trouble with stock brushed motors is once you've had an 11-13 turn brushed motor, they just aren't satisfying to drive anymore.. unless you put drift tyres on.. but maybe that's my driving style.. would love to know more about timing on brushless
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Old 09-12-2010, 07:49 PM   #17
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I'm just Getting back into racing and I am running brushed. I run it because it is cheap. With everybody running brushless, the brushed stuff is going for a song. Of course I am only running 27t brushed which makes maintenance not as bad as modified brushed. I do plan to get a lathe so I can keep the hand full of motors I have running fast, which means comm cutting every 3-4 races, not 3-4 runs. I will move to brushless once my skill level improves and I move to mod but right now brushed is great for me and my stock class driving ability.
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Old 09-12-2010, 07:51 PM   #18
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If all the fast guys who have the ability actually ran mod, maybe we wouldn't be having these discussions.
THAT is the killer for me. We have a small club by international standards. I'd say there is about 30 guys at our club that run touring, and only about 20 or so on average at a race meet.

We have 3 classes. Our stock is silver can, then modified, and last year we brought in Superstock which is 13.5. It was brought in to be a stepping stone to mod. Last meet there were no mod drivers, as they all run superstock now. So, instead of racing guys like me, I race guys that lap me 3 times in a 15 lap race. Good for experience until you start getting demoralised as you know you will never place higher than mid-way.

I may run mod at our next regional, it seems they are doing slower lap times......
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Old 09-12-2010, 07:52 PM   #19
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i hate to say it but i dont think brushless is saving on-road electric TC and seems like it is going backwards . . . add timing on the esc now limited 17.5 etc.

how many people would like to just see stock 27t BRUSHED LOCKED endbell come back along with 19t BRUSHED LOCKED endbell and let mod guys open it up with open brushless and open esc's???

u go to the big race and everyone in the stock and 19t class is on the same motor . . .

i am i not just saying this cause i couldn't part with my fantom lathe . . .
I like the idea of that. I like tweaking brush motors to make it go faster, that's the fun part of this hobby actually doing something, not just slap a brushless motor and there u go no maintenance.
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Old 09-12-2010, 07:53 PM   #20
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Just for record, I'm completely in favor of brushless; however I'm against all these new programmable esc's that are spoiling everything good about brushless motors.

Fortunately, Speed Passion "gets it" by selling their Cirtix Stock Club Combo which includes a non-adjustable esc with your choice of a 21.5, 17.5, 13.5, or 10.5 brushless motor, all for only $90

There is no reason for the average club racer to have to spend hundreds of dollars on a brushless motor and esc and then have to deal with all these program parameters. Let the "pro" guys buy that stuff! The majority of us want a simple, and affordable brushless esc/motor combo that is not multi-programmable that puts the "fun" back in racing! That's where the Cirtix Stock Club Combo fills the bill! Kudos to Speed Passion for thinking of the average rc racer!

Having said that, whatever form of electric rc racing you prefer needs to have classes for units like the Cirtix and not allow the "pro" types to infiltrate and ruin it by racing with the super expensive multi-programmable units. Make them run their own class and stay the heck out of stock!! Many of them prey on the average stock racers and enter their classes so that they can get the easy win. You all know what I'm talking about.
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Old 09-12-2010, 07:55 PM   #21
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OMG, just the thought of spending hours cutting comms and trying every different brush and spring combination made by man brings shivers up my spine! I'm not so sure I like all the "advancments" made with the ESC's of today though. Maybe somebody needs to make a spec ESC and motor combination with zero or at least the same amount of timing?
Speed Pasion citrix stock speedo. Only 50 bucks, no timing. You can get the speedo and 17.5 motor combo for $90.

http://www.speedtechrc.com/store/ebp...?catmainid=918

This is what touring car needs to thrive. No brushed motors! never again!
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Old 09-12-2010, 07:56 PM   #22
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I wouldn't tell anyone to run something that is outside their ability to control, and nobody has any business telling anyone else how to spend their money. But...

The guys that are good are going to get around the average guy just fine. I'm not saying that the "one class only' thing should be carried over to local clubs, I would almost insist that it didn't. Local clubs should maintain a novice class for those guys that are just getting used to going in a straight line, but these are not the guys going to big races...

The guys going to big races can drive well enough to allow another car to pass, and I'm going to venture out into left field and say that the guy coming up with all that speed has the ability to pass a slower car.

The differences in speed and/or driving ability are all fixed after 1st round resort, it's that simple. But what if your a fast guy and you break in the first round and thus get resorted to the back of the pack you say?? Well there are a few ways I think that could be fixed. 1) is recognize the format and understand the importance of making it through the first round, don't drive balls out until you are in a heat that allows for it (qualifying strategy), or the more logical option.. 2) resort based on fast lap times, be it fastest 3 laps, 4, 5, something to give a total time to provide an accurate resort but does not count out that guy that broke.

With the race software I'm sure is available now I know that it is more than feasible to do a first round resort based on groupings of fastest laps, and then revert to the 5-6min or whatever time attack qualifying that we are used to.

I like that x amount of fastest laps. It seems to me to be a foolproof way of sorting the drivers (not cars) into classes based on skill. Lets face it if you can maintain a consistant fast pace for 5,6,7 laps etc you are better than most hacks like me and deserve to be a class up.

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Old 09-12-2010, 08:02 PM   #23
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Get with the program that's why we have the SP cirtix ESC/Motor 17.5 combo which both are on locked timing.
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Old 09-12-2010, 08:41 PM   #24
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I miss the brushed days. Well kinda. I like the 3am dyno pulls in the motels. Then the phone rings and its the front desk telling you to stop..lmao other then that I like the sleep now. No more 3am dyno pulls for me.
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Old 09-12-2010, 08:56 PM   #25
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"Fortunately, Speed Passion "gets it" by selling their Cirtix Stock Club Combo which includes a non-adjustable esc with your choice of a 21.5, 17.5, 13.5, or 10.5 brushless motor, all for only $90"

Now that's 'Mo like it! As usual one group want's to use 21.5, because a track 6 hours away runs them,the other group says "17.5 is faster!" and the rest that say "let's go for broke and run the 13.5. It's easier to win the race than solve the action in the pits.

Why we run 540's in F1
1 They are not slow. In the d-drive cars they are making the same lap times as the 1/12 brushless cars on the small carpet tracks. On the big tracks there is still not much time lost.
2 they are cheap, actually some of the old racers have boxes of them and will give them away or sell them for next to nothing.
3 These are tough little motors. I have some from the '80's that are still making laps.
4 I'm one of the older racers. I probably have a 20 year supply of these things so I might as well use them until we are forced to change. Which will be fine when it happens. Maybe I could put props on them and cool down the car after the race.
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:05 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by peter_robinson View Post
The guys that are good are going to get around the average guy just fine. I'm not saying that the "one class only' thing should be carried over to local clubs, I would almost insist that it didn't. Local clubs should maintain a novice class for those guys that are just getting used to going in a straight line, but these are not the guys going to big races...

The guys going to big races can drive well enough to allow another car to pass, and I'm going to venture out into left field and say that the guy coming up with all that speed has the ability to pass a slower car.
I have been to plenty of races where this is not the case. Some guys are pinballs in stock.

I do get that it all could be sorted out at big races. It's definitely not workable at most club or local facilities. The thing is though, nobody is going to the big race to race open if they know they can't handle it and they will be in the U main. Everybody will jump on here and say "well at Cleveland in 1991 they went down to a double z main in mod". The cars were also, in today's terms, slow as hell. I found a car action with the 1992 Cleveland race, and if you average the laps, mod went 11.1 seconds a lap, and stock went 12.1. I found the 2008 results, mod was going 8.8, stock (17.5, without all the boost) 9.9. 2 seconds a lap is huge, not to mention the stock cars are over a second a lap faster than mod was.

There's a point at which normal humans can't handle any more. God bless you if you can, but it just narrows the number of people who will be racing.
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Old 09-12-2010, 10:01 PM   #27
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I'm trying to get touring classes locally with a fixed esc/motor combo. Sucks for the sponsored guys that can't use that product, but otherwise it's really not equal equipment wise.

Excellent point. Most of the sponsored guys can put it on the local hobbyists any day of the week. I've always believed the stock class should be for beginners/less experienced drivers. Let the sponsored drivers run open mod, which can include 17.5 or 13.5 with all the timing/boost ya can throw at it. Remember, it's mod, anything goes.

I'm very thankful for what brushless has brought to the table for the hobby. True, there is far more adjustments to the ESCs than ever before. However, before it was brushes, springs, lathes, dynos, et al. I think playing with ESC settings is a lot less costly than playing around with all the other brushed black magic.
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Old 09-12-2010, 11:09 PM   #28
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I have been to plenty of races where this is not the case. Some guys are pinballs in stock.

I do get that it all could be sorted out at big races. It's definitely not workable at most club or local facilities. The thing is though, nobody is going to the big race to race open if they know they can't handle it and they will be in the U main. Everybody will jump on here and say "well at Cleveland in 1991 they went down to a double z main in mod". The cars were also, in today's terms, slow as hell. I found a car action with the 1992 Cleveland race, and if you average the laps, mod went 11.1 seconds a lap, and stock went 12.1. I found the 2008 results, mod was going 8.8, stock (17.5, without all the boost) 9.9. 2 seconds a lap is huge, not to mention the stock cars are over a second a lap faster than mod was.

There's a point at which normal humans can't handle any more. God bless you if you can, but it just narrows the number of people who will be racing.
I get what your at, but, the tracks were much tighter back in the day cause we only ran 12th scale on them, now days they have to make room for the Taxi's to get around, so the laps are shorter, and the layouts more open.
Not disagreeing with the fact that cars are faster now, but just saying...
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Old 09-12-2010, 11:14 PM   #29
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Ran the 17.5 stock (no timing) class at the IIC this weekend and finished pretty good in the A main.
I was worried that this class might have been too slow to be fun but I was pretty impressed with the speed of a 17.5 with a locked ESC.
I thought it was faster than the fastest old stock brushed motors we ran back in the day.
I'd run it again anytime.
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Old 09-12-2010, 11:18 PM   #30
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Back in the day you used voodoo to tune brushed motors and make them fast. Now you slide around a couple of widgets on a computer program and you can have the same settings as Hara run after run after run. Why would we go back?

That said, I find it pointless. We were running 13.5 before all this ESC stuff happened. Now we've spent all this money on ESCs and motors, and time to figure them all out just to make 17.5 go as fast as the 13.5s they replaced. The only people that won are those selling ESC's and motors.

I think sedan needs 3 classes. But I actually race sedans, sometimes even away from home. The classes should be 17.5 spec, 13.5 spec and mod. Or, if you want to keep the ESC game going, 17.5 spec, 17.5 open and mod. If you think there's too many classes, lets get rid of WGT.
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