R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-12-2004, 09:49 AM   #1
Tech Elite
 
kufman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Elburn, IL
Posts: 3,428
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Default ROAR Brushless Rules Bogus?

Does any one else besides me think that the rules being drawn up for the ROAR brushless class are rather poor. The rules I speak of can be found

Here

These rules basically only allow the use of a novak motor and controller. They are overly strict about many things especially when it comes to the wiring of the sensor wires for the brushless motors. The current reading of the rules rule out the use of all existing companies motors except novak. I personally own 3 different brushless systems, Novak's, an Aveox, and a Hacker/Lehner steup. Unfortunately, novak's setup is not even close to the 10 turn motor that they claim. From my testing at AJ's Raceway in DeKalb, the novak seems to be well suited for 19 turn competition. This doesn't really suprise me after I took a look at the results from the novak race in WI last year. If you divide the time by the number of laps run, the novak brushless class was barely faster than the stock rubber class. Both classes ran the same tires and the same number of cells. The results that I speak of come from here.

http://rctech.net/events/novak2004/i...ml#stockrubber

If you take the top stock rubber tire time and laps and divide it out to get average time per lap you get 13.88 sec/lap. Then the same procedure for top brushless person you get 13.91 sec/lap. Unfortunately you can't compare to any other class because all of the other classes used foam tires. True, it is slightly faster than stock, but not by much. The roar rule rules out the use of all motors from Lehner, Hacker, Aveox, Kontronik, Mega, and probably others that I can't think of right now. Does anyone else besides me run brushless motors besides those made my novak? I think it is absurd that the rules state things such as "no delta wound motors" and the specific colors required for the sensor wires and the exact order that they have to be in. Do the roar rules require the use of red and black wires on brushed controllers? Do they state and exact an exact order and type of connector that has to be used? NO they don't. WAKE UP ROAR!!!
kufman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2004, 09:54 AM   #2
Tech Elite
 
Turbo Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Corona, CA
Posts: 4,878
Trader Rating: 41 (100%+)
Default

If they're making a big deal about the sensor wires...that should probably mean something to you.

The sensors relate the armature position and speed to the ESC and the ESC controls the timing...screw with what the ESC sees and you change the timing.
Turbo Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2004, 10:27 AM   #3
Tech Elite
 
kufman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Elburn, IL
Posts: 3,428
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Default

Every company does their sensonrs in their own way. Just because novak picked their order, doesn't mean that it is the best. Aveox made systems years before novak even started theirs and their sensor wires and sensor arrangement is completely different. If you play with the order, the system will just fail to work at all. Maybe they should just call it the Novak Demo Class.
kufman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2004, 12:18 PM   #4
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Jose California
Posts: 1,251
Default

Agreed

ROAR seens to that....They don't seen to care as much about what you want over what their sponsors want

Maybe none of the other manufactuers submit their BL systems and ROAR didn't know how to bsae their rules

Though I gotta admit. The whole colored wire thing is STUPID
The Black Kat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2004, 12:22 PM   #5
Tech Elite
 
AdR|aN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Malaysia. Land of Peace.
Posts: 2,445
Send a message via ICQ to AdR|aN
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by The Black Kat
Agreed

ROAR seens to that....They don't seen to care as much about what you want over what their sponsors want

Maybe none of the other manufactuers submit their BL systems and ROAR didn't know how to bsae their rules

Though I gotta admit. The whole colored wire thing is STUPID
Maybe Novak does know the limitation of performance from their b/l and didnt want any competition from any other companies.
This way, its also a marketing strategy for them.

What do you have after the final??

Mr A from Team B has won the 1st B/L Final to be held under Roar rules with a Novak B/L.

That would be the headline in alot of mag and website.



DOn flame me though ...
AdR|aN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2004, 12:45 PM   #6
Tech Elite
 
kufman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Elburn, IL
Posts: 3,428
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Default

I can see the marketing potential if 1st place through 20th place were running novak bl's. I was just hoping that the all mighty buck wouldn't limit brushless the way is has limited brushed. I guess I don't really have to worry, nobody around here really runs roar rules anyway.
kufman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2004, 06:52 PM   #7
Suspended
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Back That Thang Up!
Posts: 3,468
Trader Rating: 11 (100%+)
Default

kufman i agree with you 100%, and I run a Novak bl system. ROAR has many suspicous rules that I feel are dictated by the US based manufacturers...ROAR seems to want to please them.

But I can't blame them either because ROAR depends on manufacturer sponsorship of races in order to keep this hobby alive. Once Hacker and the other BL manufacturers start sponsoring major US races, I am sure ROAR will change the rules again.
403forbidden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2004, 08:01 PM   #8
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Newville,Pa
Posts: 2,152
Trader Rating: 7 (100%+)
Default

Brushless guys wanted rules that allowed brushless to race at sanctioned events and now they are there you still whine???

Have you ever concidered the fact that Hacker, Aviox, or whoever doesn't give a crap about you being able to race it?? In which case they would have not sent in a sample for concideration??

I can tell you ROAR or any sanctioning body for that fact doesn't pay a dime for the samples they recieve so that they can review and legalize the item for racing...

So these companies you praise so much don't wanna part with a few dollars to get their product legalized for competition which in turn would bring in more buisness........


GIVE IT A THOUGHT BEFORE YOU GO BASHING ROAR AND NOVAK!!!

Don't flame me, I am just stating an opinion maybe you should e-mail whatever company you love so much and beg them to send in a sample for concideration, also ask if they sent one in.... don't be suprised to hear NO to at least one of those questions........
__________________
G's RC Raceway- Best off-road track on the east coast...period!!!

Pitman for Team Dallas Austin...
IMPACTPLAYR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2004, 11:23 AM   #9
Tech Elite
 
kufman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Elburn, IL
Posts: 3,428
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Default

so basically they allow the motors from the companies that pay them to do so. In saying pay, I mean they give samples for free which is the same as paying. It is still sad to see the rules being made directly from the motor, down the exact color of wires and such. Maybe roar should specify the exact colors for brushed controllers and the order they are connected in. Do you think that would make very many people happy? I don't think so.
kufman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2004, 12:26 PM   #10
Tech Master
 
burbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 1,152
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to burbs Send a message via Yahoo to burbs
Default

kufman

every single race organisation requires a motor to be submitted for aproval... some organisations require 3 motors and 100 dollars.. they completely tear apart the motr checking everythuing.. meaning after its done it is shot...

if u do not offer a select group of rules. people will take advantage of the loose rules... at roar races there is a little thing called tech.. if u have 10 motor companies all with different layouts how aere u suposed to tech them... all roar legal brushed motors follow the same guide lines.. why shouldnt brushless..


if u have complaints with roar rules dont race roar races....

Novak is the only brushless manufacturer to step up to the plate, and try to get the brushless game out...n

look at the novak race.. novak donated 30 brushless systems for people to use during the race... dont thinkl just cause it is called the novak race that is why... it is actually called the us touring champs., sponsored by novak.... and they sponsored it long befvore brushless

the roar paved oval nats this comming august will also be having a brushless class offered... and yes again novak is offering systems for use by racers.....movak has stuck alot of money into perfecting brushless racing.. if i were them as a company i would do everything possible to make it work,.... the other companies also dont submit... novak is making systems for different levels of speed.. theres is not just off the wall power..... the other versions are designed for massive power speed, and runtime...


Roar ghas many elected officials... there is a vote on everything entered in as a rule.. these people fly to the meetings , at there own expense.. all roar officials are voulentary...no one is paid with some under the table ohh make my stuff legal money..... if it was that way roar would be 100% trinity for the last 10 years.. cause we all know they would..
burbs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2004, 01:00 PM   #11
Tech Elite
 
kufman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Elburn, IL
Posts: 3,428
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Default

I understand the the need to submitt a motor, but I don't agree on writing the rules straight from the tear down of one motor, especially when that motor is the new kid on the block compared to the rest of the brushless world. I think I will take the advise mentioned here and just not race roar events. Unfortunately, I don't think that companies like Hacker, Lehner and Aveox will go the extra mile to make a new motor just for ROAR. It just isn't a large enough market to make it worth while. Boats, planes, and bashers provide a much larger market.
kufman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2004, 02:22 PM   #12
Tech Master
 
burbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 1,152
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to burbs Send a message via Yahoo to burbs
Default

you said it the market isnt large enough... But as u can see.. NOVAK is doing alll that they can to make it grow...
burbs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2004, 06:29 PM   #13
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: NY/FL
Posts: 3,376
Trader Rating: 24 (100%+)
Default

kufman, I can see where you're coming from and I'm a huge supporter of BL motors and gaining acceptance of the technology at all levels of competition BUT....I think the argument has been made and I believe you do understand why things are this way with ROAR. Believe me when I tell you I'm no great fan of ROAR's apparent bias toward Trinity. Unlike Novak, Trinity is guiding the market to their advantage against a host of other equal companies.
IN THE U.S. ( i made that loud for a reason) Novak is the largest and most apparent proponent of brushless tech for rc cars. They should be applauded for their efforts. Although other companies exist, their market share is small and their advertising efforts weak. Keep in mind also that Novak ONLY makes units for car use. I believe all the other companies primarily deal with aircraft. Although I don't like our national governing body to show favoritism, I fully understand backing Novak's efforts since they are really the only company emphasizing BL tech for cars.
Evoracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2004, 09:26 PM   #14
Tech Master
 
burbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 1,152
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to burbs Send a message via Yahoo to burbs
Default

Evoracer

im going to disagree with you on roar favoring trinity...

if this was so wouldnt the new 4 magnet motor have been aproved??? wouldnt the new 2 magnet with the 4 magnet armature be approved??? i think so...

the roar paved oval nats is at my home track this summer... we always used a trinity handout or a monster for national events... this year we get to use the reedy 5 year old MVP....

Why??? because trinity has chosen to not make the monster anymore in enough quantity to be a handout.. so they do not have a ROAR aproved stock motor .. and ROAR is not budging on the rules to allow them special treatment.. . So in turn trinity has screwed us again.. they used to have a sticker with there screw kits that said i got screwed by trinity..... its happening..

there is also speculation that trinity is up for sale... i heard it from a close source to them... suposedly ernie wants out and wants to go more into the epic end of the market..

BTW the EP in EPIC is Ernie Proveti he owns both...

I am also very good friend with roars region 5 director... He is and always has been a racer... his voice would out in meeting if there was favoritism... or at least we as close friends would here about it..

the only rules for a motor to be roar aproved, that most manufacturers dont meet seems to be the amount available at a certain time.. there must be a certain quantity available to the public ( USA) for use...and most other comapnies of foreign origin do not submit a motor for aproval...

this rules are only for stock motors.. modified is open to anything...

the main reason people seem to think someone is in bed with someone is there stuff is most used... trinity stock motors have always been on top.. and always will be.. its just how it is..

but i do agree with you as ststed in my prev posts... novak is taking the ball and choosoing to run with it
burbs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2004, 02:56 AM   #15
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Newville,Pa
Posts: 2,152
Trader Rating: 7 (100%+)
Default

Also it wouldn't matter if Hacker or whoever bought a billion Novak systems and rebadged them as Hacker and sold them to the US, Until they subit a specimine it will not be legal......


Also if memory serves me correctly when the first ESC's where sanctioned for racing the power wires had to be a specific color..... Brushless is a new technology that Roar is still unsure of and as such they are being cautious with the rules to avoid cheating......
__________________
G's RC Raceway- Best off-road track on the east coast...period!!!

Pitman for Team Dallas Austin...
IMPACTPLAYR is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New ROAR rules Rfury Georgia Racing 9 01-16-2008 12:58 PM
Roar Rules rollagen Nitro On-Road 1 08-06-2007 06:04 PM
ROAR Brushless construction rules - where? sosidge Electric On-Road 4 05-03-2007 04:35 PM
? on ROAR rules gator Electric On-Road 2 11-23-2002 12:13 AM
ROAR rules LooseCannon Nitro On-Road 18 09-08-2002 11:03 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 11:23 AM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net