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Old 06-14-2004, 01:07 AM   #121
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Tempest 2000 : I agree entirely. Some people have already mentioned this "category-specific matching" issue on this thread before, and I think it makes a lot of sense. Let's even go one step further. How about recording how much current is drawn from the batts on a typical mod sedan track, and then replicating this sequence, in order to match the batteries with a load that's really realistic? Of course, you'd have to do the same for stock, 12th scale, and so on... but then it'd have some sense.

And without going to such complexity... why not matching at 40A already (can current turbomatchers pull that much?)? 40 is closer to the average draw for mod sedan at least. (3500mAh dumped in 5mn)

Later,
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PS1:I think ProMax also described the situation pretty well... The RC business is a "push"-type business

PS2: EAMotorsports, after your cells have come back from Japan, can you please send them to Switzerland?
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Old 06-14-2004, 10:22 AM   #122
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I believe that its better to match at a higher rate that what is encountered on the track. Unfortunately todays matching equipment can only handle 35 amps so this is the max for now.

For stock and 12th scale and all other lower amp draw classes I thing it's still beneficial to use a higher rate.

When you say 28 amp this is only an average.

For those who think that using some type of variable discharge that would equal to what happens on the track would not be realistically possible because of all the different tracks and types of racing.


I would also like to point out a few things that I have read and disagree with. Some seem to imply that we always keep the best for the team and we only sell cells that are lower. That is simply not true. Basically we keep the top 1% at the most. Since we do a large volume the remaining 99% has some really great packs. We have also worked real hard with the major distributors and have a great stick pack program so this helps us get even more good cells since we need many stick pack cells.


For those who think that an extra .005 and extra 5 seconds of runtime makes a big difference let me tell you something that happened at the Snowbirds in Mod sedan. When I did the list of who was going to attend I forgot to put Ralph Burch on the list. So basicallt we gace out all the packs to they other drivers who I had on our list and then when Ralph showed up for packs we gave him packs out of the spare ones we had brought in case we forgot anyone or if someone had issues with a pack. So in the end Josh Cyrul probably had the best numbered packs and ended up in the B main while Ralph ended up winning.
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Old 06-14-2004, 10:34 AM   #123
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I understand it's an average and if you avg. a certain amount then it stands to reason that you will be above that at some point.

I was just curious on your thoughts.

Thanks
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Old 06-14-2004, 03:30 PM   #124
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Cool Been readin this all along

We can argue all we want and demand answers. What if we don't do it?

Remember panasonic 3000 HVs? Wasn't it SMC that said charge like a Nicad? Who the heck would have done that after reading "3mv per cell". SMC was right.

We can't sit still. Move forward. If it works great, if not, "eh" we still learned something. A couple of years from now we will all have the answer on 35 A discharge and will be discussing 40 A discharge or something else. If we don't do it in a couple of years we WILL NOT KNOW if it is better or not. I am glad some one is willing to invest in the future and that is what it really is.
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Old 06-15-2004, 02:42 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally posted by EAMotorsports
IF anyone wants to every borrow a pack of my "Team cells" then stop by and see me at the track...I will loan anyone a pack as long as they give me their honost opinion when they are done with em!!
Ya promise??? I'll be by your pits in Vegas.

This thread is crazy, you guys can have all the degrees that you want, with all your supposed experience, but the fact remains that, if the 35a thing, only killed the cells, then SMC, TQ, KCR, and all of the other matchers that have switched to the 35a matching, would be loosin lots of money in blown cells on the matchers.

SMC has a reputation, if it was a gimmock, once all you non team guys have their cells, it would become real evident real fast that its a joke. I dont think Danny would risk, his companies name, on such a thing, if he didnt think it wouldnt work.

Hell I dont even run for SMC, and I will say that when my old battery sponser swiched to 35a matching for the team packs, it was better on the track and on the T35. Thats good enough reason for anyone to start it. Hell, if he wanted to, he could have just kept it to himself and done it for only the team guys to get them better packs. But thats not the case. Todd Putnam had commented on other boards, about he when he was working for Trinity doing motors and cells for the team, one of the tricks was to re-cycle all of the packs at higher discharg rates to better weed though the cells to really find the good stuff.

But buy it or not, I bet $10 that within a year most all major matchers will all be using 35a for matching the cells.
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Old 06-15-2004, 04:30 AM   #126
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Default Re: Been readin this all along

Quote:
Originally posted by David Root
We can argue all we want and demand answers. What if we don't do it?

Remember panasonic 3000 HVs? Wasn't it SMC that said charge like a Nicad? Who the heck would have done that after reading "3mv per cell". SMC was right.

We can't sit still. Move forward. If it works great, if not, "eh" we still learned something. A couple of years from now we will all have the answer on 35 A discharge and will be discussing 40 A discharge or something else. If we don't do it in a couple of years we WILL NOT KNOW if it is better or not. I am glad some one is willing to invest in the future and that is what it really is.
WEll said.

Remember when overclocking CPU's was such a taboo subject? Remember it was only the techies that did it? Now years later Motherboard makers claim overclockablities on there latest boards. System builders sell them overclocked if the buyer wants it. All the worry years ago is now gone because power users pushed the limits. Now today joe packard bell and compaq all wanna overclock there systems.

Are battery matchers much like overclockers? They push the limits of cells to bring the best out of them for our racing pleasure? The matchers are the ones doing the R&D for us. So that we have a choise as to get yesterdays,todays or tomorrows matched packs. One great thing about Danny is that the track is always the place that ends up deciding whats hot or not. Remember when the sanyo3000s where out? They posted better numbers in some cases but sucked on the track. I personally remember guys smiling about how there sanyos stickers where much higher then my gps... it did not take long to see there packs on the for sale boards though! Where are those cells now? tested and now sold as sport packs.

Remember no one is forcing anyone to buy anything. So long as there is a market of racers though battery technology will keep growing
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Old 06-15-2004, 08:47 AM   #127
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I have read this thread, and find alot of attitude over nothing. Some would say 35A is a ploy to get you to buy "the cell of the month". Some would say 35A actually "gives you a better cell". Maybe we need to simplify this and ask one question. Why are companies like SMC in business? To make a dollar? Yes. But i am sure they have much more in mind. For a company like SMC to thrive longer than the "cell of the month" permits, they must continue to offer better products. If they didnt offer better products, then the market, or the buyer, would go elsewhere. SMC has one job, to give us,what they believe, is the best cells available. This is ALSO the job of every other matcher in the industry. Why would SMC, or any other matcher for that matter, offer something that would not be worthwhile? So they could lose their customer base from offering a crappy product? Its simple logic, that many of you have mixed with "data says this" and "data says that". YES heat IS an enemy for NiMh cells. So is a hammer, and a blow torch. But SMC does NOT offer flat, blue colored heated, "nuked" cells. They are offering a product they believe will help those that can actually make use of the extra given to them. If your lap times are not consistent within tenths of a second, you should be reading this for learning purposes only. Your reply just shows ignorance. How can you comment about something you have no idea on? Thats like talking about Bigfoot's ballsack as its your confidant, need i mention, hes not real? (nor are his balls...for the slow of mind)

Years ago i spoke with Korgae before he worked with Danny at SMC. At that time, i had started a small battery business. He helped me on the phone with what my cells should be and how to get them there. Then, Trinity introduced 30A numbers. And of course the industry had to follow. In my searchings i found that higher amperages DID weed the cells. It made sure that the cells put out higher voltages with less IR, even with the temperature increase. Print out the graphs (not just the damn labels) from your Turbomatcher, it tells the facts. I tested as high as 80A. This worked well on NiCd. Current testing on GP NiMh does not show that 80A is advantageous. 35A however does NOT notably degrade the cells when used for MATCHING purposes. Now. If you were to run the pack (any pack for that matter) repeatedly in a monster truck geared with the smallest spur/largest pinion on an Aveox 2 wind brushless system... you might have an issue. ( this might be a case where the person would NOT be making the best use of the pack) When used in the properly intended situation, 35A can, and will, help us determine what we are using on the track. If you are looking for a stick pack for your Tamiya Grasshopper... need not apply. If you want a bad ass set of cells, purchase, assemble, install... and grin.

By the way. I personally do not run SMC cells, i run Kinetix packs. I worry more about how my car handles on the track, than the numbers on my stickers. Im not the fastest guy, but i am consistent within tenths of a second per lap... the whole race. So dont hack on what i have typed, instead, just read, and let it be.


DISCLAIMER: If i have offended you, i apologi.... wait. Thats right... keep waiting for that apology.

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Old 06-15-2004, 11:44 AM   #128
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Thanks Lonestar.
Saying
"The RC business is a "push"-type business"

You are quite right, I agree it is. As long as everyone realises there is some pushin' goin' on here. Both marketing driven and race driven. But the distinction between the two is never clear.


Quote:
Would anyone argue that 30 amps is not better than 20 amps at accurately determining cell performance on the track? Would it then stand to reason that anything over 30 amps would be a better indicator than 30 since cars pull well over 30 amps? If we had the equipment to test at 40 or 50 we would do it because the closer you can get to on track performance, the better the batteries can be matched. Will anyone please respond to refute this rationale? We have been trying to make this point for 4 pages, but I don't believe anyone cares.
Jack I agree, logically it would follow that 40 or 50 amp matching should be better but the problem appears to be that the current 'off the shelf' matching equipment is not up to the job. Perhaps a company with custom built matching equipment might take advantage and get ahead of the competition?

I thought Orion already do something to simulate a race discharge?

"RDS:
Race Discharge Simulation is a testing process that simulates actual race conditions."

It's on the FAQ page, maybe I don't get it right? It says it's simulating a race discharge to weed out the weak cells. Isn't that what Jack is talking about? Isn't that better than 35A discharging? or 40A or 50A??

http://www.team-orion.ch/products/batteries.asp


p.s.
I think I'll stick with my 20A matched GP3300's they perform good enough for me!!
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Old 06-15-2004, 12:15 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally posted by ProMaX
Thanks Lonestar.
Saying
p.s.
I think I'll stick with my 20A matched GP3300's they perform good enough for me!!
I guess the real point of the 35 amp stuff is Max performance!!! MAX PERFORMANCE!!! YOu can argue that a K&N filter is a waste of money too!! But I had one on my 5.0 in the day.
But I can tell you-while competing at the ROAR Nats, Snowbirds, Reedy ROC or the US Indoor Champs and your gunning for every second because its the difference between an entire Main-or even making the show-I want all the guns loaded with maximum ammunition!!! If the only difference between a 30 amp pack and a 35 amp pack is 2 to 3 seconds on a PERFECT run-I'll take it!!! Because in RC racing-many times all it takes is one run!!

I mean-am I the only one who owns "Race Packs" and "practice Packs" and buys two new packs for every BIg race?
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Old 06-15-2004, 12:20 PM   #130
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2-3 seconds is alot in a 5 minute race IMO

i usually run my old stuff at big races and do pretty good...maybe i should get new stuff b4 a big race then it could be the difference between 7th in the A and 1st?
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Old 06-15-2004, 01:49 PM   #131
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Here is a picture of our new 35 amp packaging.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 35ampboxsmall.jpg (16.5 KB, 161 views)
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Old 06-15-2004, 01:55 PM   #132
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I like the new boxes, looks good danny.
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Old 06-15-2004, 03:36 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally posted by DaveW
Thats like talking about Bigfoot's ballsack as its your confidant, need i mention, hes not real? (nor are his balls...for the slow of mind)


- DaveW


LOL for that you have a devoted reader! that rocked!

we are all saying the same thing over and over now..EA will go to vegas and lay the whips on them 30 amp guys! SMC up on ya!
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Old 06-15-2004, 05:03 PM   #134
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bigfoot nut sacks ! thats funny and hairy also!
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Old 06-15-2004, 08:04 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedxl
bigfoot nut sacks ! thats funny and hairy also!
i resemble that remark!
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