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Old 06-13-2004, 10:49 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Rimer
I don't see why it is relative to this conversation to break down what happens internally to a cell to understand that it creates a performance advantage. The genius's argueing their points can't even get the facts correct. The batteries pull much more than 30 amps under load, not less. Heat does impact the performance of the cells. That is why we control the room temperature when we match so that the heat does not INFLATE the numbers. Yes, the numbers actually go up with heat. Now when you can logically and scientifically explain how you come to the conclusion that an R/C car pulls less than 30 amps yet still drains a battery with over 400 seconds of capacity in 5 minutes I will give validity to your views. Until then, get the facts straight before you post.
FYI - we all know internally something happens within cells, but if some posters want scientific answers - WHAT'S YOUR BEEF

this is nuts, people having problems with these guys because these guys are not accepting answers that they feel are not addressing the questions they pose.

an insightful scientific answer often goes A LONG way than incohesive, unscientific, beat around the bush rhetoric.
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Old 06-13-2004, 11:23 AM   #107
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There is a reason for the maddness the higher the discharge the more cells you get at the same runtime, hence better packs to sell. My matching experiance showed me that I got more high end cells at 30a than I did at 20a. You racers should look at charge time, it's more important than run time. If you have a 5 cells that take in 3000M and a cell that is 3400M that cell will not charge completely even though they all read 400 sec. and that will hurt your runtime and voltage. haywyre
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Old 06-13-2004, 11:27 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Rimer
I don't see why it is relative to this conversation to break down what happens internally to a cell to understand that it creates a performance advantage.
I do. That's the whole point. We know there are lots of criticable statements made in every rc car media (especially in the mags... think Trinity) about all sorts of supposedly technical advances that are just marketing bogus. It works, because everybody think that a 0.1% hp increase will make them win races, and because people like to think that money can buy speed. Sometimes, these technology breakthroughs are bogus (think CVEC, super lubricants, Sanyo 3300HV's, ...) sometimes they're real (think battery matching, rebuildable stockers, turbo plugs). I think the best way to convince people actually is to explain why they're not bogus. And if you're a good technician, you should even be able to explain to your non-specialized interlocutors what's happening, in simple words. I like to learn stuff. Reading that Josh and Ralph kicked everybody else's butts with 35A cells is no new stuff. They've been kicking everybody else's butts ever since I can remember about racing rc cars (1986... ralph TQ'ed the 8th scale onroad worlds in Austin in 1989 if I'm not mistaken).

Why can't anybody please explain what's going on in these friggin' cells when they're discharged 3 times at 35A instead of 30A? How does this edge remain after the pack's been run in miscellaneous categories a certain number of times???

Quote:
[i]The genius's argueing their points can't even get the facts correct. The batteries pull much more than 30 amps under load, not less. Heat does impact the performance of the cells. That is why we control the room temperature when we match so that the heat does not INFLATE the numbers. Yes, the numbers actually go up with heat. Now when you can logically and scientifically explain how you come to the conclusion that an R/C car pulls less than 30 amps yet still drains a battery with over 400 seconds of capacity in 5 minutes I will give validity to your views. Until then, get the facts straight before you post. [/B]
Who said the opposite? We all agree... Obviously our mod sedans pull more than 35A... 3800mAh in 5 minutes is equivalent to an average of 3.8*12=45.6A... Why don't we match our mod sedan batteries batteries at 45A?

I'm not saying SMC is lying to anybody, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't because the RC business is tough enough with BS (once again, think about how people consider Trinity). I would just like to understand what's going on... Is that forbidden?

Later

Paul
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Old 06-13-2004, 11:32 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally posted by haywyre
There is a reason for the maddness the higher the discharge the more cells you get at the same runtime, hence better packs to sell. My matching experiance showed me that I got more high end cells at 30a than I did at 20a. You racers should look at charge time, it's more important than run time. If you have a 5 cells that take in 3000M and a cell that is 3400M that cell will not charge completely even though they all read 400 sec. and that will hurt your runtime and voltage. haywyre
interesting... I thought cells that discharged the same also charged the same... (nothing's created, nothing's lost, everything's transformed... not sure if that's the correct translation)...

so you're saying two cells with very similar discharge numbers could peak at different times when charged at the same current?

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Old 06-13-2004, 01:51 PM   #110
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Default Re: 35 amp

Quote:
Originally posted by haywyre
There is a reason for the maddness the higher the discharge the more cells you get at the same runtime, hence better packs to sell. My matching experiance showed me that I got more high end cells at 30a than I did at 20a. You racers should look at charge time, it's more important than run time. If you have a 5 cells that take in 3000M and a cell that is 3400M that cell will not charge completely even though they all read 400 sec. and that will hurt your runtime and voltage. haywyre

In theory charge time should be a part of matching but if you put todays cells on the same machine you would see that the charge time is very similar when cells have the same runtime.

I have also noticed that machines will fluctuate a bit on the charge rate affecting the charge time. unless you would use 1 machine it would be hard to compare charge times.
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Old 06-13-2004, 02:03 PM   #111
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For all of you who are expecting a real technical answer as to why 35 amps is better than 30 I can't really give you one.

All I can say is that when you load a cell at a higher amp rate it seems to improve the perfromance of the pack proven by our track testing.

I really don't know what else to say. I'm also not going to claim that you will see a major difference. This is just a step forward in trying to improve cell matching. It's simply a matter of evolution.

When I got CE to change the IR number from relative to Actual I had similar debates on forums such as these. Many had negative things to say. Now if you look at it 5 years later it seems that most companies have switched over to it.

I can tell you why some companies may not want to change to 35 right away. They will wait and see just like the Actual IR. once they see it's accepted they will switch over to it. The majority of the TM-4's out there can only go to 30 amps. This is why it took us time to go to 35 amps we needed more machines.


I believe someone mentioned that the stock packs will cost more than before for the same cells. We only increased the retail by 5.00 but increased the minimum voltage spec to 1.16 which will roughly be 1.175 + at 30 amps.


In the end you can keep buying packs matched at whatever rate you prefer. We will still offer 30 amp matched packs.
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Old 06-13-2004, 02:23 PM   #112
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Heh

Some more interesting points being made here and there...

I have my own $0.02 I'd like to offer up but I think it would be best to just sit back and watch some more...
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Old 06-13-2004, 02:44 PM   #113
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Danny,

thanks for your honest and cold-headed feedback. I think this is what this thread needed until now.

Later,
Paul
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Old 06-13-2004, 05:03 PM   #114
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Having read right through this thread (and yes it did take some reading and digesting!) nothing came to me such as "WOW!!! 35A matched packs amazing I must go out and buy some NOW!!".

I have got to know many matchers over the years, the clever and innovative and dedicated people who in many cases are/were also racers. True they know a lot from their learned experience gained from years of matching batteries, BUT they're not the clever people who design the batteries or do the R&D at a company such as Sanyo or GP and so cannot offer the in-depth technical explanations called for by some. YES they do know a lot more than those of us who simply buy the batteries charge them and race with them. A few posters on here have asked valid questions about various points of contention that have been made and will continue to be made regardless of the cells in use (be they 3300, 3600 or 3900 etc in future) and the rate they are discharged at or the method employed to cycle and match and zap them etc.

My cynical/pragmatic view (shared by a few others it appears) and not as a 'for' or 'against' 35A matching, by myself as a seeker of truth is...

Regardless of if it's better in any way, the fact that it's available will mean that SMC team drivers (or any other 35A matched cell supplier) will win with 35A matched cells not because they're using 35A matched cells but simply because they've been winning with 30A matched cells because they're good drivers with a good car/ESC/motor/battery package. Because they win other lesser drivers will think they will win as well and will buy into 35A. Other battery matching companies will see this happeneing and will follow the lead and adopt 35A. The argument will always be "drivers win with 35A so they must be better". If no drivers win at top level with 35A then they are most likely not better. The top companies have the best drivers signed up so they will win with whatever equipment they use.

The irony of it all is that if 35A cells are 'seen to be better' its all rather convenient that it favours the money making aspect of cell matching... obvioulsy higher throughput at 35A than 30A. As cell capacities increase every year matchers have to maintain their production output to maintain their income. In fact they have to increase output to increase sales to make more $'s... you get the picture!! The only way to match more cells (that have to be fully discharged to get the matching data) is to discharge at a higher current or expand the business, (buy a bigger building and more matching hardware). And as a result of 35A matching maybe the cells don't last as long at peak performance, what with being zapped and cooked etc, but hey who cares (who cares that we all end up having to buy packs more often)... 35A matched packs ARE better coz SMC et al say they are!!! They may truly believe it, and they may actually really be better, or... ?? The average Joey probably doesn't even read things or here, and will buy what his LHS or his racing friends say is best, so sales will be maintained despite what the tech-heads may write or say.

Well, that's how I see it, but then who am I to know the truth or really know the answers?
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Old 06-13-2004, 08:21 PM   #115
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Would anyone argue that 30 amps is not better than 20 amps at accurately determining cell performance on the track? Would it then stand to reason that anything over 30 amps would be a better indicator than 30 since cars pull well over 30 amps? If we had the equipment to test at 40 or 50 we would do it because the closer you can get to on track performance, the better the batteries can be matched. Will anyone please respond to refute this rationale? We have been trying to make this point for 4 pages, but I don't believe anyone cares. I am not a GP engineer so I can not explain what makes a cell behave like it does. However, since Gold Peak routinely calls Danny for information and sends us test cells from time to time, I would say they have a certain degree of faith in SMC's ability, not to mention an amount of curiousity themselves about what makes these batteries perform in this environment. They can't explain why zapping works- does that mean, then, that it doesn't? If anyone should know shouldn't it be the manufacturer of the cell?
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Old 06-13-2004, 09:22 PM   #116
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I dont think any real technical answers are going to come from this thread,because as Danny and Jack have both said they dont have one.

My opinion for what its worth is its just another way to pick out better team cells for the sponsered drivers of SMC and at the same time pass down a few all be it very few better cells to us humans.I can accept that

20 amps used to be the norm.Then I think it was Pro Match went to 25 and everyone thought it was great,then up to 30amps still no complaints.
Now all of the sudden 35 amps makes no sense???????????

I see it as progression,if there was none we would still be running stick packs and gommies.
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Old 06-13-2004, 09:37 PM   #117
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I promised myself I wouldnt post one more thing, but I will one more time. I think the bone of contention here is tha fact that neither you or Danny will discuss at a molecular level the chemical changes that occur from a higher discharge rate and the resultant increase in performance.

The mere idea that increased performance could be realized BECAUSE of a higher dis rate alone is inconceivable to some.

So it seems that you and Danny and your team drivers and representatives could conceivably post till your blue in the face-but the needs of the few would outweight the need for information of the many. Without using words like Crystallization, Polarization, Re-alignment of charged plates....its all for not.

This thread is a no-win situation as you said-4-pages and many are not convinced.

I dont blame them for wanting to know "WHY" I'd like to know why too-but lets get serious-motor tuning and battery zapping are immersed in a sort of black Magic as it is. Experience plays as great a role as a degree in Chemical engineering.
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Old 06-13-2004, 09:54 PM   #118
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How about a quote from a TV comercial? "WHY ASK WHY?"

Who really give a rats azz as long as it works!!! For the non believers go run what ever you feel is best for you. Danny and Jack are not engineers.....But I am sure they feel the same way. If it works so be it....They dont need a scientific answer just on track performance. Do we race matchers? Or motor Dyno's? Nope....

The only machine I trust when it comes to racing is the STOPWATCH...because lap times dont lie!!!

EA

P.S. IF anyone wants to every borrow a pack of my "Team cells" then stop by and see me at the track...I will loan anyone a pack as long as they give me their honost opinion when they are done with em!!
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Old 06-13-2004, 09:58 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally posted by EAMotorsports


P.S. IF anyone wants to every borrow a pack of my "Team cells" then stop by and see me at the track...I will loan anyone a pack as long as they give me their honost opinion when they are done with em!!
Ummm ... Hows about FED EX to Japan
Just kiddin' Eric

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Old 06-13-2004, 10:41 PM   #120
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I can see where 35 or above amp discharging is beneficial when used for 6 cell touring mod. It is close to the actual avg. amp draw that the pack will see over a 5 min. race.

Now think about this.

Let's say in mod 12th we average 27.5 amps over 8 minutes. (This is a guestimate based on...
440 (run time on a 4 cell pack @ 30 amps)/480 (8 min race)*30 amps = avg. of 27.5 amps.

Wouldn't mod 12th be better suited to a discharge rate of 28 amps or so?

Taking other classes into account such as stock 12th or stock touring where we don't use up the battery in a race, it would stand to reason that they are averaging even less than 30 amps also.

My question is... would it make more sense to match based on avg. discharges rates of specific applications if we are truly wanting to make as close of an accurate representation of how a cell will perform for a given class???

This is all just in theory and please don't get stirred up about it. I realize it would cause much more work for the matchers... I was just wondering if this made any sense to Danny, Jack, SMC being they have done so much testing.
Thanks,

Michael
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