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Old 06-11-2004, 10:16 PM   #91
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EA you do know this is katf1sh right?

and those are the proper channels...

and ray you make alot of sense..that is you cant win a debate!

SMC do you know what the S stands for? superior muahhahaahahahahahahahaahahhaahahahhh


sorry though i just used kinetix as an example..i read there name was brought up so i used it.. i should realy only accuse the garage matchers that i see for myself...but it's very close to being true..some dont even have garages to use..basements,closets and trailers come in handy,lol...

i'm just glad eric started all of this....his 1.19's he gets went down to 1.17's ahahahahahahaahah

i dont think this thread is productive anymore?

SMC has there very own Q&A thread on rc tech if you guys have serious questions about charging, and storage..i would post there for getting questions answered...

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Old 06-11-2004, 10:57 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally posted by cr250
I am POSITIVE that excessive, extreme heat kills Nimh batteries. I am very familiar with Nimh batteries and how they function. I have matched cells that were graded at every charge and discharge rate that is reasonability available. These same cells were then assembled and tested again while digitally recording discharge data. This data was then graphed to obtain individual performance curves for each pack. This data is real. These same packs were then cycled many times in an attempt to duplicate the operating life they may see in a RC vehicle. Guess what I discovered? Excessive heat KILLS!!!!!!!!!

Because a cell charging/discharging is nothing more than a chemical reaction, it is temperature dependent. ALL chemical reactions are faster at higher temperatures. That's one of the reasons why cells perform noticeably better when they are at an acceptable warm temperature. If you exceed what is acceptable, electrolyte damage and potential venting offset the faster temperature-chemical gains and performance goes down, along with cell life. It's those high, electrolyte-damaging temperatures that permanently damages cells. Again, all I'm asking for is a technical explanation as to why a 35-amp discharge is better. I mentioned my education background only to support my desire for this explanation.

Lastly, don't under estimate the power of MARKETING. There is nothing wrong with making a procedural change for the sake of marketing.
NICE POST MAN -- it may say teck rookie under your name but it is definitely evident that you're not a rook in the NiMH dept.; thanks for the info, and keep posting man.
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Old 06-11-2004, 11:20 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally posted by Evicerator
Very scientific thread we have going on here

I was thinking of going to see a movie today but why when I can stay here and be entertained all day for simply the cost of electricity!



FYI, juding by what I've seen and tested (hey, I work for Novak) I'd estimate peak (NOT CONSTANT) current draw from "hot" modified motors to be well over 100 amps
i know, THIS IS GREAT ISN'T IT. i love this technical sh--.
i gotta keep reading
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Old 06-12-2004, 07:50 AM   #94
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........

Last edited by cr250; 10-19-2013 at 09:04 AM.
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Old 06-12-2004, 08:49 AM   #95
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wwhy doesnt anybody come with a matching process that REALLY simulates what happens on the track, ie constantly varying loads, instead of unrealistic constant currents...

If 35A is that much better because it better corresponds to average loads our packs withstand on the track, then why not do something that really reflects reality?

Just my 2 cents

Paul
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Old 06-12-2004, 08:57 AM   #96
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3 more questions:

1- What is that "weed out" rate when going from 30A to 35A? And what happens to the cells that are weeded out? Do they vent? Do they melt? Do their figures collapse? And in the end, what do matchers do with them? Throw them in the trash?

2- What's the statistical repartition of 35A matched cells compared to 30A? Because if it's the same, there's no point in doing it... the best cells at 30A are also the best at 35A... just like integy's best 20A cells are comparable to most matchers' 30A cells.

3- Why do people get so friggin' nuts about battery numbers when most of us can't drive to save our lives? What percentage of drivers do you know who can run a full 5 minutes within a couple of tenths of the track records? Maybe we should try to drive better instead of blaming our gear when we're slow. as somebody said, don't underestimate the POWER OF MARKETING. Remember, the TC3 is 5 years old and it can still whoop your butt.

I know I sound PO'ed, and it's because I am. I hate it when people either worship or flame a brand without understanding the underlying technical issues. And so far this thread is turning into a "mine's bigger than yours" thread.

Paul

PS: I've ran Danny's cells before... and true, they were among the best... just like ProMatch, and (the late) WorldClassBatts.
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Old 06-12-2004, 12:56 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lonestar
3- Why do people get so friggin' nuts about battery numbers when most of us can't drive to save our lives?
This is a VERY profound statement......
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Old 06-12-2004, 08:23 PM   #98
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I don't think we believe we are any better or worse than anyone else who matches batteries. We choose to do it one way, someone else does it another. Does it really matter? Maybe, maybe not. We've had great success this year running 35 amp cells. Does that mean it was the batteries or the motors, or the driving, or the car, or the tires...well, we know it was the tires.LOL. Anyway, the battery debate always seems to stir emotions. The unfortunate reality is only the top few drivers can probably translate any performance advantage into meaningful results. We are going with 35 amps because we can honestly say we have won the biggest races of the year with it. Why argue with success? It doesn't take a degree to figure that one out. When someone else wins with their new 10 amp packs give me a call.
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Old 06-12-2004, 08:33 PM   #99
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I dont in any way shape or form see this is a "ours is bigger than yours" thread. What i see are people taking stabs-some pretty nasty at SMC and a few people trying to defend them with very well thught out and written and factual posts.

If this were the Tc3 thread and someone came on saying TC3 suck-buy a Losi-ummmmm........

Alll you would see posted for the next 5 hours would be people defending Tc3's and asking why anyone would come into a thread about Associated Tc3 product and start blasting it?

Am I wrong? IN this case I know I am not wrong.

And unlke a few very proud RCTechers on this thread-I will gladly admit when I a wrong.
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Old 06-12-2004, 08:48 PM   #100
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Paul,

Its too bad Fabio from SRC is not on here to post as he can really put into words why 35 amp is "different" than 30 amp matching and why its better for the serious racer.

I think (and these opinions are MINE-not Danny's or Jacks).

1. The cells best suited to 35 amp discharging will be sorted into the 35 amps stock.

2. unfortunately thats not a real good way to look at it-as a cell thats gone through a 35 amp matching process will behave different than a 30 amp matched pack. As Josh Cyrul said-they have more power for mod and provide more punch in stock than the battery that was matched at 30. So in other words-after purchasing a 35 am p pack and a 30 amp SMC pack you cycle them BOTH at30 on your T35 GFX-they may have the exact same numbers on the cycles-but will perform different on the track.

3.Your right about the driving part-but again-the power of marketing? When is the last time you saw a full page SMC add in a rag? They are lucky enough that there reputation is spread racer to racer.

Sorry your PO'd, but just think how the people who use SMC are by Recordbreakers and others nasty attacks against SMC and Danny's integrity.

I Pay to use SMC batteries and I a PO'd too.


Quote:
Originally posted by Lonestar
3 more questions:

1- What is that "weed out" rate when going from 30A to 35A? And what happens to the cells that are weeded out? Do they vent? Do they melt? Do their figures collapse? And in the end, what do matchers do with them? Throw them in the trash?

2- What's the statistical repartition of 35A matched cells compared to 30A? Because if it's the same, there's no point in doing it... the best cells at 30A are also the best at 35A... just like integy's best 20A cells are comparable to most matchers' 30A cells.

3- Why do people get so friggin' nuts about battery numbers when most of us can't drive to save our lives? What percentage of drivers do you know who can run a full 5 minutes within a couple of tenths of the track records? Maybe we should try to drive better instead of blaming our gear when we're slow. as somebody said, don't underestimate the POWER OF MARKETING. Remember, the TC3 is 5 years old and it can still whoop your butt.

I know I sound PO'ed, and it's because I am. I hate it when people either worship or flame a brand without understanding the underlying technical issues. And so far this thread is turning into a "mine's bigger than yours" thread.

Paul

PS: I've ran Danny's cells before... and true, they were among the best... just like ProMatch, and (the late) WorldClassBatts.
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Old 06-12-2004, 09:17 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally posted by rayhuang


3.Your right about the driving part-but again-the power of marketing? When is the last time you saw a full page SMC add in a rag?


Just Last week here in Japan...( RC World Sorex Japan doesa awesome job of pushing SMC here in Japan...and "THEY ARE THE BENCH MARK" to beat in Japan

And to the wonderful guys at SMC....when will Japan see these 35A packs
THanks
-Dave
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Old 06-12-2004, 10:38 PM   #102
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Wow. This really is a Soap Opera. Much like Evicerator, I have watched this unfold as well.

I think the new grading will be a step in the right direction. Not necessarily because of the 35A part, but because of the separation of what is desirable in stock, versus mod. Although it does leave room to charge consumers good money for low runtime "stock" cells that in the current structure would be much less than team cells. We'll have to see how it all plays out.

It's occured to me that the CELLS turned out in the process will not be any better than with the standard 30A discharge, BUT the PACKS could be better if the match is truly more precise. Maybe that has already been mentioned.

What's wrong with wanting a scholarly explanation of what's going on? Remember, however, that a "scientific" explanation can come from experience, as well as, from books, etc. Part of science is the experimental side, and the gobs of data generated from testing. That can be very scientific. But, I am sure that any engineers out there, that have made a living out of corresponding data to actual chemistry or physics would appreciate their money going to someone who has the drive and the appreciation to aspire to that level in an effort to relate and sell to all of his/her customers. So far it is nearly apparent that none of SMC's spokes persons here have taken that step. It's OK to have high demands as a customer, but it is also wise to prepare for disappointment on a frequent basis.

Danny delivers to those racers who have the highest demands regarless of their technical expertise. And that is what sells in this industry/hobby. It is not rare for the fastest guys to sound like idiots if you ask them about anything more than power, rollout, or tweak. That's just a fact that is painful to stomach for anyone that hopes a superior intellect will fill a void in skill. And I am NOT implying that is the case with anyone who has posted here. A few of the fastest racers around aren't even the primary mechanics! Nuts to me, but it speaks volumes about talent at the wheel. Which, by the way, is why track data is so tough to put stock in. Yeah, it's what counts, but there are so many variables, that it would drive an engineer crazy to consider. Often a game of numbers. How about that if you don't get a good start in a 5minute race, you're done. Period. SMC, Kinetix, Pro-Match. It doesn't matter. Chris Doseck won the Cleveland a few years back, and Trinity had a field day with that. But if you saw the race, you would have seen that it wasn't horsepower that put Chris in the winners circle. It was maintaining consistency while the hottest cars out there lost it.

These boards are here so that intelligent discussion can take place. It's best when it's free of bashing, but people's defensive nature usually propels things to escalate to that level. Personally, I believe that the truth always gets exposed given time, and efforts to stiffle that process are often a substantial indicator of hidden agendas.

Is that happening here? I don't think so, but to have a post here for a product, is to advertise. Regardless of intent, that is what it does. Advertising breeds sales, and sales persons face all types of customers. Skilled salespersons can effectively address any and all questions. There are still questions here that were poorly addressed, and perhaps, poorly formulated to begin with. Here is mine:

Can SMC, in all it's successes, turn to a friend, contracted thinker, or otherwise to correlate the increased track performance to a change in chemical or physical reactions taking place within their newly matched cells?

A "No" will suffice as an answer, but it is unfair to ridicule someone who seeks that kind of understanding from a top level company.

A "Yes", followed by the explanation would do wonders for anyone who is on the fence. This would further SMC's claim to being the frontrunners time and time again. Again, personally, I see no logical reason that this information, should not be shared with consumers.

Let's cool off just a bit.
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Old 06-13-2004, 02:24 AM   #103
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Post Re: As the World Turns

Quote:
Originally posted by IncogneatO
Wow. This really is a Soap Opera. Much like Evicerator, I have watched this unfold as well.

I think the new grading will be a step in the right direction. Not necessarily because of the 35A part, but because of the separation of what is desirable in stock, versus mod. Although it does leave room to charge consumers good money for low runtime "stock" cells that in the current structure would be much less than team cells. We'll have to see how it all plays out.

It's occured to me that the CELLS turned out in the process will not be any better than with the standard 30A discharge, BUT the PACKS could be better if the match is truly more precise. Maybe that has already been mentioned.

What's wrong with wanting a scholarly explanation of what's going on? Remember, however, that a "scientific" explanation can come from experience, as well as, from books, etc. Part of science is the experimental side, and the gobs of data generated from testing. That can be very scientific. But, I am sure that any engineers out there, that have made a living out of corresponding data to actual chemistry or physics would appreciate their money going to someone who has the drive and the appreciation to aspire to that level in an effort to relate and sell to all of his/her customers. So far it is nearly apparent that none of SMC's spokes persons here have taken that step. It's OK to have high demands as a customer, but it is also wise to prepare for disappointment on a frequent basis.

Danny delivers to those racers who have the highest demands regarless of their technical expertise. And that is what sells in this industry/hobby. It is not rare for the fastest guys to sound like idiots if you ask them about anything more than power, rollout, or tweak. That's just a fact that is painful to stomach for anyone that hopes a superior intellect will fill a void in skill. And I am NOT implying that is the case with anyone who has posted here. A few of the fastest racers around aren't even the primary mechanics! Nuts to me, but it speaks volumes about talent at the wheel. Which, by the way, is why track data is so tough to put stock in. Yeah, it's what counts, but there are so many variables, that it would drive an engineer crazy to consider. Often a game of numbers. How about that if you don't get a good start in a 5minute race, you're done. Period. SMC, Kinetix, Pro-Match. It doesn't matter. Chris Doseck won the Cleveland a few years back, and Trinity had a field day with that. But if you saw the race, you would have seen that it wasn't horsepower that put Chris in the winners circle. It was maintaining consistency while the hottest cars out there lost it.

These boards are here so that intelligent discussion can take place. It's best when it's free of bashing, but people's defensive nature usually propels things to escalate to that level. Personally, I believe that the truth always gets exposed given time, and efforts to stiffle that process are often a substantial indicator of hidden agendas.

Is that happening here? I don't think so, but to have a post here for a product, is to advertise. Regardless of intent, that is what it does. Advertising breeds sales, and sales persons face all types of customers. Skilled salespersons can effectively address any and all questions. There are still questions here that were poorly addressed, and perhaps, poorly formulated to begin with. Here is mine:

Can SMC, in all it's successes, turn to a friend, contracted thinker, or otherwise to correlate the increased track performance to a change in chemical or physical reactions taking place within their newly matched cells?

A "No" will suffice as an answer, but it is unfair to ridicule someone who seeks that kind of understanding from a top level company.

A "Yes", followed by the explanation would do wonders for anyone who is on the fence. This would further SMC's claim to being the frontrunners time and time again. Again, personally, I see no logical reason that this information, should not be shared with consumers.

Let's cool off just a bit.
WOW!- that's a lot to swallow, but I have to follow suit.
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Old 06-13-2004, 02:57 AM   #104
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IncogneatO, it's rare to see such well-written, cold-blooded, logically constructed statements on any rc-board. I'd be curious to know who you really are under that alias...

Right on. I would like to understand what's going on from a technical standpoint. And so far every technical question (whether it's about cell chemistry or matching statistics) has been answered with a "who cares about technique, it's the number_of_wins/customer_satisfaction/our_track_record/Danny's_personality that counts".

I'm not blaming SMC in particular. This kind of discussion happens every time a "new" technique appears on the market, whether it's motors, brushes, batteries, transmission, whatever. Every brand has its loyal customers and fierceful detractors, and every time they all get emotional and forget real facts and figures.

I, too, am an (electrical) engineer. My specialization is in signal processing, so I know a thing or two about statistics. I, too, want to understand. Can't anybody with real battery zapping hindsight and no ownership/sponsorship/emotional implication with battery matching (SMC or others) please enlighten us with technical explanations and figures? So far only cr250 has played by these rules...


Thanks,
Paul

PS: Sorry if my english is not 100% right. This is far from being my native language.
Quote:
Originally posted by IncogneatO
Wow. This really is a Soap Opera. Much like Evicerator, I have watched this unfold as well.

I think the new grading will be a step in the right direction. Not necessarily because of the 35A part, but because of the separation of what is desirable in stock, versus mod. Although it does leave room to charge consumers good money for low runtime "stock" cells that in the current structure would be much less than team cells. We'll have to see how it all plays out.

It's occured to me that the CELLS turned out in the process will not be any better than with the standard 30A discharge, BUT the PACKS could be better if the match is truly more precise. Maybe that has already been mentioned.

What's wrong with wanting a scholarly explanation of what's going on? Remember, however, that a "scientific" explanation can come from experience, as well as, from books, etc. Part of science is the experimental side, and the gobs of data generated from testing. That can be very scientific. But, I am sure that any engineers out there, that have made a living out of corresponding data to actual chemistry or physics would appreciate their money going to someone who has the drive and the appreciation to aspire to that level in an effort to relate and sell to all of his/her customers. So far it is nearly apparent that none of SMC's spokes persons here have taken that step. It's OK to have high demands as a customer, but it is also wise to prepare for disappointment on a frequent basis.

Danny delivers to those racers who have the highest demands regarless of their technical expertise. And that is what sells in this industry/hobby. It is not rare for the fastest guys to sound like idiots if you ask them about anything more than power, rollout, or tweak. That's just a fact that is painful to stomach for anyone that hopes a superior intellect will fill a void in skill. And I am NOT implying that is the case with anyone who has posted here. A few of the fastest racers around aren't even the primary mechanics! Nuts to me, but it speaks volumes about talent at the wheel. Which, by the way, is why track data is so tough to put stock in. Yeah, it's what counts, but there are so many variables, that it would drive an engineer crazy to consider. Often a game of numbers. How about that if you don't get a good start in a 5minute race, you're done. Period. SMC, Kinetix, Pro-Match. It doesn't matter. Chris Doseck won the Cleveland a few years back, and Trinity had a field day with that. But if you saw the race, you would have seen that it wasn't horsepower that put Chris in the winners circle. It was maintaining consistency while the hottest cars out there lost it.

These boards are here so that intelligent discussion can take place. It's best when it's free of bashing, but people's defensive nature usually propels things to escalate to that level. Personally, I believe that the truth always gets exposed given time, and efforts to stiffle that process are often a substantial indicator of hidden agendas.

Is that happening here? I don't think so, but to have a post here for a product, is to advertise. Regardless of intent, that is what it does. Advertising breeds sales, and sales persons face all types of customers. Skilled salespersons can effectively address any and all questions. There are still questions here that were poorly addressed, and perhaps, poorly formulated to begin with. Here is mine:

Can SMC, in all it's successes, turn to a friend, contracted thinker, or otherwise to correlate the increased track performance to a change in chemical or physical reactions taking place within their newly matched cells?

A "No" will suffice as an answer, but it is unfair to ridicule someone who seeks that kind of understanding from a top level company.

A "Yes", followed by the explanation would do wonders for anyone who is on the fence. This would further SMC's claim to being the frontrunners time and time again. Again, personally, I see no logical reason that this information, should not be shared with consumers.

Let's cool off just a bit.
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Old 06-13-2004, 07:46 AM   #105
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I don't see why it is relative to this conversation to break down what happens internally to a cell to understand that it creates a performance advantage. The genius's argueing their points can't even get the facts correct. The batteries pull much more than 30 amps under load, not less. Heat does impact the performance of the cells. That is why we control the room temperature when we match so that the heat does not INFLATE the numbers. Yes, the numbers actually go up with heat. Now when you can logically and scientifically explain how you come to the conclusion that an R/C car pulls less than 30 amps yet still drains a battery with over 400 seconds of capacity in 5 minutes I will give validity to your views. Until then, get the facts straight before you post.
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