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Old 06-11-2004, 08:31 AM   #61
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RB and cr250-Are you sure that Heat is really the enemy of NiMh in terms of performance?

How warm do you get your cells charging before racing and how warm are they after running a 5-minute heat with an 8x1 in it? I get mine 125 to 140 before every race and they are almost as fast after 7 months as when they were new. They certainley arent damaged.

I think everyone who states SMC is doing this for marketing is W-R-O-N-G!!!

And I think everyone who claims heat in GP batteries does not affect performnace in a positive way is regurgatating something they heard two years ago and wont open there eyes to new developments-like 35 amp discharging.

Read all the posts-theres been enough reasons given why 35amp is better. I'll post what Josh Cyrul said about them here in a second. But of course it will be dismissed by some as more "Pro" mumbo jumbo!!!

I have a degree in Hospitality Management and I too can understand techincal information and I also know when something is just plain old faster in the real world too.

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Old 06-11-2004, 08:33 AM   #62
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Default Josh on 35 amp SMC batteries

JOsh Cyrul jedi - I like the 35 amp packs especially in sedan and and form of stock racing. They usually have more punch in stock but in mod there is a very noticable difference. For the carpet nats they sent packs that were done at 30 instead of the 35 like we had been running since the beginning of the year. While the packs tested the same and ran good on the track - the ones that were matched at 35 did have more power and it equaled about 2-3 seconds of improvement on a 5 min run.... In 1/12 mod it's a toss up since running a consistant pace is always the best, but in that case I still used the 35 amp packs but just charged them softer (5 amps) to get that more level voltage for the 8 minute run....
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Old 06-11-2004, 09:28 AM   #63
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Old 06-11-2004, 09:43 AM   #64
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cr250-nice post!! Good info!! Not arguing-what temperature is excessive? 150 and up?? HIgher?
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Old 06-11-2004, 10:09 AM   #65
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Old 06-11-2004, 10:15 AM   #66
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CR250 maybe I can help.

The reasons behind 35 amp matching via SMC is closer tolerences in the match itself and also it weeds out weaker cells.Mod Oval and Mod Sedan put alot of abuse on cells and for the same reason everyone went from a industry standard of 20 to 30 was for a closer match it also weeded out the weaker cells that couldnt handle that amp level on the matcher being in racing it can go ALOT higher than that.
Danny is VERY smart when it comes to batteries.I helped introduce his cells to america in the late 90's in the southern and coastal area's of america.I had ran every matcher's cells out there including from across seas finding his cells were simply stronger with the same #'s than anything I could test in a car and on the track.
The BEST thing about SMC's cells is that they hold their Zap and last a long time.But when Danny moves to 35 it's for performance reasons and has NOTHING to do with advertising reasons.I can prove this wrong REALLY quick.
Most stores wont have the trained person behind the counter to explain why SMC's #'s are lower due to 35 instead of 30 amp matching and Im sure they wont have a comparrision chart on the top of the counter.So it's NOT for advertising reasons but for performance reasons and a closer match.
I hope this helps.
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Old 06-11-2004, 10:32 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by TexRacer
CR250 maybe I can help.

I can prove this wrong REALLY quick.

Les
I have no made an official dertmination as to whether we will match cells at 35 amps but some good points have been made here.

Taken from SMC's own website:

"Do not charge GP 3300 Cells with a cheap low end charger. these chargers can lead to Over heating of the cell and can result in injury or damage."

We will be doing some testing of our own shorty. I'm sure the GP cells can handle a 35 amp discharge rate, but I'm not sure how open this industry will be to this change. It will be very hard to compare cells matched at 30 amps with cells matched at 35 amps which will lead to much confusion about which pack is really better.

We will be watching to see how the industry reacts.

Good luck SMC!


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Old 06-11-2004, 10:34 AM   #68
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cr250-yup-got a nice proffesional Exergen temp gun!!

Yes-I have two tm-4's sitting in my office here at work and yes--at 30 amps and 0.90 cut-off they are Red-hot!! YOu pop it out of the holder and put it down as fast as you can!!!

But wouldn't that then mean that 30 amp discharge is already too damaging for a cell? And if so-then shouldn' the industry go back to 20 amp?

TexRacer-what you staed about a closer match was running around my head but wouldnt pop out-thanks for reminding me of that. I used to many matchers on a daily basis, but havent talked about matching in a long while and I had forgot that part of the puzzle.

Ray

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Old 06-11-2004, 10:34 AM   #69
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Old 06-11-2004, 10:48 AM   #70
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Old 06-11-2004, 12:02 PM   #71
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Wow lots of responce.

History repeats itself.. when we were the first to go to 30 amps the same thing happened, same comments same closed minded thinking.

and as History will repeat itself in a year everyone will be familiar with 35 amp matching.

first off, lets address the "load of the cell" for CR250 and Record Breaker.

Record Breaker made a comment that a Sedan can not pull 30 amps therefore their is no need to match or cycle at 30 amps.

We know for a fact that during racing, cars far exceed the 30 amp mark, I can not remember who did the test to record this ( it was in Japan and I think it was a speed control company) but the average a sedan pulls in mod is around 45 amps with peaks of 75 amps.

2nd point) if a cell is is rated @ 410 seconds @ 30 amps. and cycles out to lets say 400 for this debate. You claim a car doesn't pull 30 amps, why is it possible to dump during a 5 minute run (300 seconds) ?? where does the extra 100 seconds go? you might argue the fact that a motor as it heats up will become more inefficient, I agree but lets be real here, 19 turns are almost capable of dumping these days. not to mention that motor tech has had to catch up to Battery tech within the last year, the new Orion Motor is made to run cooler and more efficient yet it is still dumpable.

Why do our dynos. read past 30 amps? Why does CE offer a turbo 45 dyno?

based on your theory and your welcome to it, you should buy your own batteries and follow the manufactures specs in order to not over heat the cell as you believe it causes damage. Do you know what the manufactures specs are? charge @ 1C and discharge @ 3.3C.

In English, thats charge @ 1 amp and discharge @ 3.3 amps. for maximum life ( 500 cycles) Sounds old skool to me, maybe create a league of Mabuchi motors and overnight chargers.

For years every matcher has pushed the so called max limits placed on cells by their manufacture. for example we all charge @ 4-7 amps. this far exceeds the manufactures recommendation of 1C or less.. the GP cell is the first cell in the hobby industry where the manufacture says the cell can exceed 30 amps ( 58 to be exact for a momentary time) ( this according to GP Themselves)

the cell also carries a temp range of 50C (about 130F)

The reason we are doing 35 amp matching is not marketing or hype! if it was you would have seen huge full page ad's months ago. SMC is built around performance, our loyal customers know that.

a lot of this has to revolve around sanyos new cell. We were the first to step up and say we will not match it.

here is a bit of background.

we have been testing the theory of 35 amps for a while but the proof really came when we received the sample Sanyo cell. ( 3600)

here is why: (this is from a e-mail Danny sent me.)

The IR is .6 to .8 higher on the Sanyo cell so this means when you load up the cell at a higher rate it will have more voltage drop. With the current TM-4 we can only compare from 30 to 35 amps but I would have to say at a higher rate the difference would be even greater.


Example:

GP cell @ 30 amps: 437-1.161-3.0
GP cell @ 35 amps: 373-1.144-3.0


Sanyo @ 30 amps: 447-1.158-3.5
Sanyo @ 35 amps: 380-1.136-3.6

Note the change in AIR. ( its higher on the Sanyo [email protected])



***** End of e- mail*******

Now we can see how much the AIR moved on the Sanyo cell, on this particular GP cell it did not, but because every cell is not the same, we choose to believe that going to 35 amps will show a difference , this will allow us to "weed" out weaker cells for the Pro series, This will make your packs stay stronger longer.


someone asked what happens to a bad cell, first off we call them bad because we are perfectionists. looking for the best of the best. they really are not bad.. as in they do not work. Bad means the AIR will shoot up higher or the voltage is a bit lower then that particular grade we are looking for.

The Surge guy has quoted a bit from our page, lets clear that up as well. We posted that becuase we have reason to beleive that not all chargers react the same with the GP cell. We have long had a list of chargers that we approve and feel safe recommending them to our custoemrs based on our own testing.

recently their has been a few cases where very cheap chargers ( $30-$50) have somehow over charged the packs to a point where they blow up. that statement on our page is not intended for the racer it is intended for the newbie or novice.
Its a safty warning to all battery users, Hey Surge did you know that? where is your warning to your customers?


I hope this clears things up a bit, I want to thank Ray and Eric and everyone else who continue to believe in us and our testing.

thanks

Korgae

SMC.

P.S. I have told Danny about this Thread.
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Old 06-11-2004, 12:18 PM   #72
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First of all I would like to thank all of you who believe in me and have understood why were going to match at 35 amps.

For those who think it's a gimmick and a marketing scheme you should be pleased to know that we will still offer 30 amp matched packs.

The new 35 amp series is intended for the serious racer who wants that little extra.

Before I decided to release the 35 amp packs I wanted to make sure it made a difference. My first tests with 35 amps were done when we used the RC-2400 the results from our team was good. Now that we have a good NiMh cell with the GP3300 we started testing 35 amp and once again our racers liked them so we decided to introduce them.

There is no other needs to prove why the 35 amp pack will be a bit better than the a 30 amp pack. If our team drivers say it's better that is all that counts. Nothing beats actual track testing. Were not racing TM-4's or temp guns.

We had to buy a bunch of new machines to be able to keep up with the demand so it took us a bit longer to release them but I think the customer will be pleased with them.
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Old 06-11-2004, 12:47 PM   #73
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Very scientific thread we have going on here

I was thinking of going to see a movie today but why when I can stay here and be entertained all day for simply the cost of electricity!



FYI, juding by what I've seen and tested (hey, I work for Novak) I'd estimate peak (NOT CONSTANT) current draw from "hot" modified motors to be well over 100 amps
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Old 06-11-2004, 01:24 PM   #74
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The reasons for coming out with 35 amp matching have nothing to do with cycle times or sales gimmicks or any other hidden agendas. It appears to work well on the track so we are going in that direction. Do you think it is fun paying for a load of new machines, new boxes, promotional material, new stickers, and adding part numbers? No. We have enough orders and interest in our product to keep a 2-3 week backlog. We don't need a lot of new business, but if we find a performance improvement we must offer it to the public and take advantage of the opportunity before someone else does. It is business, but it is based on a practical performance improvement. A note to all detractors: think about it... we win the two biggest races of the year using these new packs. We are looking for validity to our theory that these new packs work. What more do we need? It made our decision very easy.
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Old 06-11-2004, 03:51 PM   #75
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Compared to some persons that have posted here I know nothing closer about betteries, or motors, but I believe in numbers.
Following the discussion, I run to my brothers house where he has more professional electronic and electric meters that I ever saw, and run just the following test:
How many amps my best 12 turn motor will pull ??
Amazing, in stall condition (like in a crash) as much as 170 amps !!!!
Acelerating hard from a dead spot between 70 to 100 amps, depending of tyre slip.
Running free wheel 18 amps !!

That's all I could measure with my brothers equipment.
So I believe that the 35 amps matched batteries will be better.
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