35 Amp Graded cells from SMC coming soon
06-10-2004, 01:57 PM
#19
Tech Regular
When comparing I usually say that for every 5 volt change on the discharge, the cell voltage is changed by .02. I'm not sure if this is exact, but thats how I learned it.
So, your 30A 1.17 would be a 1.15.
For runtime, i'm not exactly sure how to compare that but i'll bet Korgae can help me out on that one.
So, your 30A 1.17 would be a 1.15.
For runtime, i'm not exactly sure how to compare that but i'll bet Korgae can help me out on that one.
06-10-2004, 02:12 PM
#21
Tech Master
Is this more of a marketing thing. Is SMC using a different matcher than anyone else? I thought all the cells with the GP label come from the same place. I have seen matchers go through their process and they will not hold a true 30 or 35 amp discharge for the whole cycle. They start at 30 but as the equipment gets hot and used over time the cycles get inaccurate. Why not cycle the cells at 40amps and sell them that way. If your reasoning for better cells is the 35 amp discharge, then I would say it is only a way for you to either charge more for the cells or give the customer a reason as to why you already charge more than the rest...
I think, I am more confused not more informed by the team driver explanations!!!
I think, I am more confused not more informed by the team driver explanations!!!
06-10-2004, 02:16 PM
#22
Originally posted by rangulo
Is this more of a marketing thing. Is SMC using a different matcher than anyone else? I thought all the cells with the GP label come from the same place. I have seen matchers go through their process and they will not hold a true 30 or 35 amp discharge for the whole cycle. They start at 30 but as the equipment gets hot and used over time the cycles get inaccurate. Why not cycle the cells at 40amps and sell them that way. If your reasoning for better cells is the 35 amp discharge, then I would say it is only a way for you to either charge more for the cells or give the customer a reason as to why you already charge more than the rest...
I think, I am more confused not more informed by the team driver explanations!!!
Is this more of a marketing thing. Is SMC using a different matcher than anyone else? I thought all the cells with the GP label come from the same place. I have seen matchers go through their process and they will not hold a true 30 or 35 amp discharge for the whole cycle. They start at 30 but as the equipment gets hot and used over time the cycles get inaccurate. Why not cycle the cells at 40amps and sell them that way. If your reasoning for better cells is the 35 amp discharge, then I would say it is only a way for you to either charge more for the cells or give the customer a reason as to why you already charge more than the rest...
I think, I am more confused not more informed by the team driver explanations!!!
It just takes time to re-adjust to the new numbers. Its not hype-I know Danny well enough to know he cares more about performance than anything else. Again_I am not sponsored-but the 35 amp stuff I got to try has been amazing!! Ran the same two packs at Champs, Birds and Nats and my cars were FAST every race!!!
06-10-2004, 04:04 PM
#23
Tech Master
stolen from danny from another forum:
To convert runtime from 30 to 35 you multiply the runtime by the discharge rate and then divide that number by the rate you want to convert it to.
Example: 360 @ 35 is 360x35 = 12600 divide by 30 = 420
There is no true way to convert voltage because it all depends on the cells IR. But on a decent voltage cell it's about .015 difference. On a lower voltage cell it can be up to .025.
I hear you about the numbers being different.
The 35 amp matched pack will be sold for the racer who needs and wants the best possible matched pack not the one who is looking for the best looking numbers on the stickers.
When I got CE to come out with the AIR and was the first company to use this new number I was accused by many of cheating and doing this to get rid of bad cells. Well I did it because I believed this was the best way to match a pack and over time my competitors eventually caught on and changed to it. So I think people will get use to 35 amps.
We will also keep supplying 30 amp matched packs until the market gets completely use to 35 amps.
The current equipment we have can only go to 35 amps so I have never tested 40 amps. I would have to say that 40 amps would probably be better than 35 amps but without testing it I can't really say for sure.
would like to keep both packs with the same retail. What i'm trying to do is to get the mod guys to be able to get packs with higher runtime through the local track or hobbyshop. The way things are now we sell 390+ in 3 different groups seperated by voltage. So hopefully this would mean that if you race modified you can get a high capacity pack. The voltage difference will most likely be .005 which is not big difference. With message boards such as this I think it's a great way to feel out what the customer needs and want and that is very important to me.
GP cycles and tests every cell it produces and in an attempt to sell cases with more consistent numbers they pick out cells that have higher average voltage on their equipment and set them aside. They will then sell you 10% of your total order of these supposedly higher average voltage cells.
It has been my experience that GPs test equipment is different than what we use and they see a bigger fluctuation in voltage than what we see. So on their machines a 1.12 can be 1.13-1.14 on ours and a 1.15 will only be 1.14-1.15. So when they think they have a super voltage cell it really isn't that much better on our equipment.
A case of top 10% cells will normally yield more 1.17s than a regular case but there still will be lower voltage cells. I have also seen regular cases be every bit as good as the 10% cases so that leads me to believe that their sorting or test equipment isn't to accurate. end of danny posts:
below is my rant,lol.......
and the team thing: at nationals and very large events each team member gets 1 pack for the week or weekend. the team guys during the year get avg batteries to run at the local level.
if you ever get a chance to meet danny and you want to try a pack of his at a big race dont be afraid to ask him. i have heard several stories from local florida racers that cannot believe he lent them a pack to run in the D or E main.. to be honest you should be able to walk up to any of the team guys and borrow a pack to try..just leave me your credit card and drivers license,lol....danny is a racer just like us..he is always looking for a better way to do things. if you think 35 amps is a gimmick than i'm a fool! lol
and i'm sorry but pro match,fukuyama,surge,kinetix...trinity , reedy, orion, peak, power push...none of those quality matchers have 35 amp numbers on there cells..and those are the companies i see in all the magazines with there name next to the A main winners? if someone else is selling 35 amp batteries it's not helping them cause they aint winning races.. win on sunday sell on monday... and like EA said sandhills and danny are tight..and i have seen there stuff in magazines lately...
it's just very hard to say this guys batteries are the best when i dont see there name next to someone in a A main ..in all honesty they could be great batteries ..who knows for sure..but 99% believe great stuff wins major races? just like great drivers do and great cars...
Danny-SMC
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To convert runtime from 30 to 35 you multiply the runtime by the discharge rate and then divide that number by the rate you want to convert it to.
Example: 360 @ 35 is 360x35 = 12600 divide by 30 = 420
There is no true way to convert voltage because it all depends on the cells IR. But on a decent voltage cell it's about .015 difference. On a lower voltage cell it can be up to .025.
I hear you about the numbers being different.
The 35 amp matched pack will be sold for the racer who needs and wants the best possible matched pack not the one who is looking for the best looking numbers on the stickers.
When I got CE to come out with the AIR and was the first company to use this new number I was accused by many of cheating and doing this to get rid of bad cells. Well I did it because I believed this was the best way to match a pack and over time my competitors eventually caught on and changed to it. So I think people will get use to 35 amps.
We will also keep supplying 30 amp matched packs until the market gets completely use to 35 amps.
The current equipment we have can only go to 35 amps so I have never tested 40 amps. I would have to say that 40 amps would probably be better than 35 amps but without testing it I can't really say for sure.
would like to keep both packs with the same retail. What i'm trying to do is to get the mod guys to be able to get packs with higher runtime through the local track or hobbyshop. The way things are now we sell 390+ in 3 different groups seperated by voltage. So hopefully this would mean that if you race modified you can get a high capacity pack. The voltage difference will most likely be .005 which is not big difference. With message boards such as this I think it's a great way to feel out what the customer needs and want and that is very important to me.
GP cycles and tests every cell it produces and in an attempt to sell cases with more consistent numbers they pick out cells that have higher average voltage on their equipment and set them aside. They will then sell you 10% of your total order of these supposedly higher average voltage cells.
It has been my experience that GPs test equipment is different than what we use and they see a bigger fluctuation in voltage than what we see. So on their machines a 1.12 can be 1.13-1.14 on ours and a 1.15 will only be 1.14-1.15. So when they think they have a super voltage cell it really isn't that much better on our equipment.
A case of top 10% cells will normally yield more 1.17s than a regular case but there still will be lower voltage cells. I have also seen regular cases be every bit as good as the 10% cases so that leads me to believe that their sorting or test equipment isn't to accurate. end of danny posts:
below is my rant,lol.......
and the team thing: at nationals and very large events each team member gets 1 pack for the week or weekend. the team guys during the year get avg batteries to run at the local level.
if you ever get a chance to meet danny and you want to try a pack of his at a big race dont be afraid to ask him. i have heard several stories from local florida racers that cannot believe he lent them a pack to run in the D or E main.. to be honest you should be able to walk up to any of the team guys and borrow a pack to try..just leave me your credit card and drivers license,lol....danny is a racer just like us..he is always looking for a better way to do things. if you think 35 amps is a gimmick than i'm a fool! lol
and i'm sorry but pro match,fukuyama,surge,kinetix...trinity , reedy, orion, peak, power push...none of those quality matchers have 35 amp numbers on there cells..and those are the companies i see in all the magazines with there name next to the A main winners? if someone else is selling 35 amp batteries it's not helping them cause they aint winning races.. win on sunday sell on monday... and like EA said sandhills and danny are tight..and i have seen there stuff in magazines lately...
it's just very hard to say this guys batteries are the best when i dont see there name next to someone in a A main ..in all honesty they could be great batteries ..who knows for sure..but 99% believe great stuff wins major races? just like great drivers do and great cars...
Danny-SMC
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06-10-2004, 05:17 PM
#24
Originally posted by rangulo
Is this more of a marketing thing. Is SMC using a different matcher than anyone else? I thought all the cells with the GP label come from the same place. I have seen matchers go through their process and they will not hold a true 30 or 35 amp discharge for the whole cycle. They start at 30 but as the equipment gets hot and used over time the cycles get inaccurate. Why not cycle the cells at 40amps and sell them that way. If your reasoning for better cells is the 35 amp discharge, then I would say it is only a way for you to either charge more for the cells or give the customer a reason as to why you already charge more than the rest...
I think, I am more confused not more informed by the team driver explanations!!!
Is this more of a marketing thing. Is SMC using a different matcher than anyone else? I thought all the cells with the GP label come from the same place. I have seen matchers go through their process and they will not hold a true 30 or 35 amp discharge for the whole cycle. They start at 30 but as the equipment gets hot and used over time the cycles get inaccurate. Why not cycle the cells at 40amps and sell them that way. If your reasoning for better cells is the 35 amp discharge, then I would say it is only a way for you to either charge more for the cells or give the customer a reason as to why you already charge more than the rest...
I think, I am more confused not more informed by the team driver explanations!!!
For those of you (consumer/other matchers) that think discharge rate doesnt mean anything you are completely WRONG!!! To prove it cycle some packs and get two packs that are really close in numbers. Run one pack with a low amp draw motor/car (4 cell stock, 12th scale stock, etc) and run the other one in a high amp draw car (any mod motor will do). Do this for 4 weeks and keep the batteries seperated and run them the same amount of times, etc. I guarntee you after 4 weeks the mod pack will have increased numbers and the stock pack will have fallen off some. I proved this to my self about a year and a half ago. The GP's like the higher discharge amps.
EA
P.S. Sorry Korgae I guess I misunderstood Danny!! But I did post 60+ machines!! LOL
06-10-2004, 05:24 PM
#25
Here are the New part #'s for the Pro Series.
Part number_:
_
3506MOD__ High Runtime best suited for modified racing.___ ___ 115.00
_
3506STK___ High Voltage best_suited for stock racing.___ ___ ___ 115.00
_
3506P______ Good numbers best suited for club racing.___ ___ ___ 85.00
Ray- Yes SMC was the first to introduce 30 amp matching that we know of.
We were also the company to introduce AIR, into matching. We work pretty closely with CE on idea's for matching.
for the comparison of our cells to others, it will be difficult but 35 amp matching is where we had to go to continue on with evolution, I don't think we should hold back just because other matchers are stuck on 30. We are a "forward" only kinda company, and will work with the public as much as possible to familiarize everyone with 35 amp #'s..
Korgae
SMC
_
_
_
Part number_:
_
3506MOD__ High Runtime best suited for modified racing.___ ___ 115.00
_
3506STK___ High Voltage best_suited for stock racing.___ ___ ___ 115.00
_
3506P______ Good numbers best suited for club racing.___ ___ ___ 85.00
Ray- Yes SMC was the first to introduce 30 amp matching that we know of.
We were also the company to introduce AIR, into matching. We work pretty closely with CE on idea's for matching.
for the comparison of our cells to others, it will be difficult but 35 amp matching is where we had to go to continue on with evolution, I don't think we should hold back just because other matchers are stuck on 30. We are a "forward" only kinda company, and will work with the public as much as possible to familiarize everyone with 35 amp #'s..
Korgae
SMC
_
_
_
06-10-2004, 05:32 PM
#26
Tech Master
dont worry Ea i will take care of angulo fo rya! lol he is sponsored by another company and has battery envy! muhahahaha i'll have billy bruce motor by him in stock oval again! he he he
06-10-2004, 05:40 PM
#27
at what point (amp) will you actually be doing damage to the cells by discharging them at such a high rate?
there was a post on another forum regarding masami running 8-minutes in TC with 10 turns, and actually having 1-run battery packs (the heat apparently killed the runtime that fast on the pack). i know many pro's that run 7-9 turn motors, and actually can dump a pack in 5 minutes, tend to run through packs quite quickly also. i would have to think if you're charging/discharging/cycling packs at a high enough rate, you're going to start damaging the cell. no/yes?
there was a post on another forum regarding masami running 8-minutes in TC with 10 turns, and actually having 1-run battery packs (the heat apparently killed the runtime that fast on the pack). i know many pro's that run 7-9 turn motors, and actually can dump a pack in 5 minutes, tend to run through packs quite quickly also. i would have to think if you're charging/discharging/cycling packs at a high enough rate, you're going to start damaging the cell. no/yes?
06-10-2004, 06:48 PM
#28
Tech Master
ahhhh well the pros those in the A at every race use a pack once no matter what.. they need every single second of run time..run time is at it's best with a new pack..it may drop 8 seconds of run time after that one 5 minute run? and i would be first in line to buy any of those 1 run packs... 8 minutes in touring car with a mod motor would be something like 480 seconds? that is like a 25 amp load? matching at 35 helps eliminate dud cells better ..in the end on track performance will make danny a genius...results dont lie and he has been doing 35 for how many months now? how many guys in the A ?? looks good...
06-10-2004, 07:43 PM
#29
Tech Adept
For oval club racing we use 6 and 7 turn motors in mod all the time. I can dump a 430sec pack in 4 mins all day long if I want to, and I have been running the cells that, I got for the birds, as my club packs now. Thats been allmost 4 months of racing every week.
Thats over 100 amps that we can tap out of of the packs week in, week out, for 4 months, the packs are still going strong. 35, 40, 45, i dont think that will be any damage to the packs.
Thats over 100 amps that we can tap out of of the packs week in, week out, for 4 months, the packs are still going strong. 35, 40, 45, i dont think that will be any damage to the packs.
06-10-2004, 08:00 PM
#30
Danny has always been doing a good job with batteries - even before he started SMC and built up his present reputation. I ran his batteries 12+ years ago and I have some now and they have always been quality.
I have run crap cells from a number of companies over the years...and its funny to me that I never see anyone complaining about those companies.
I have run crap cells from a number of companies over the years...and its funny to me that I never see anyone complaining about those companies.
