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-   -   USGT (https://www.rctech.net/forum/electric-road/411122-usgt.html)

robk 06-24-2010 06:17 PM

USGT
 
Kevin K and myself have been talking over some ideas about "GT" style racing and maybe some ways to have a unique racing experience while still keeping the cars reasonable. This is going to be under the USVTA banner, and we would like to implement this for Sept.1, officially. There may still be some tweaks here, but it's 95% there.



USGT

Any 1/10 4wd or Fwd sedan with 4 wheel independent suspension.
4wd 1450g weight Fwd 1400g weight
Any 190mm or 200mm body….body can be any body that’s not on the ROAR T2 body list.
Any molded wings can be used. Lexan wings 10mm maximum height / side dam height
Tires-Any treaded (non–slick) rubber tire available 24 or 26mm, maximum non-sale street price of $12/pair at a USA retailer. Must used a non-molded (ex. open cell foam) insert.
Wheels- Any 24 or 26mm spoke (non-dish) type wheel
Motors- 21.5
Open ESC
6 minute qualifiers
8 minute mains
ROAR approved hard case batteries
Scale type race liveries encouraged
Driver figures NOT required :D

We looked at a bunch of retailers, and realized you can get tires from HPI, Tamiya, Associated, Integy, etc. etc. for under $12. This doesn't lock everybody in to one tire, and if you can find something cheaper that goes faster, more power to you. Run 26mm vta tires all the way around, have fun:D

The other thing was keeping away from what is right now the most successful class, 17.5 sedan. Open speedo 21.5 cars will be plenty fast, but still be a reasonable speed. We're not locking anyone into a single ESC, or motor for that matter right now. This is meant to be something between VTA and sedan, but not the same as either one.

Edit: BTW the FWD thing is getting a lot of buzz, so we wanted a place for that too.

IL_AudiRacer 06-24-2010 06:52 PM

I like It ! Long Live GT racing

alphaqgti 06-24-2010 06:53 PM

Sounds like fun! Good place to put that soon to be unusable 21.5T motor.

mikel33 06-24-2010 07:03 PM

hmmmmmm.

UltegraSTI 06-24-2010 07:13 PM

how long til MEOW runs this good idea over. wait and see. best of luck, keep fightin the good fight.

R

Damnit Man 06-24-2010 07:22 PM

I think I like this idea better than some others I have heard for GT classes. I like how it leaves tires, batteries, and ESC's open to more brands. It also adds FWD which I think would be fun to try out.

Kregger 06-24-2010 07:41 PM

After all the time you spent butting heads with people about diluting VTA and keeping the class together, why are you taking the risk of diluting RCGT and causing a rift.

mikel33 06-24-2010 08:05 PM


Originally Posted by Kregger (Post 7587259)
After all the time you spent butting heads with people about diluting VTA and keeping the class together, why are you taking the risk of diluting RCGT and causing a rift.

..

I run with Rob a lot. In our area RCGT is all but dead. We have had a fair number of conversations about how to make the class different enough to make it attractive as a 2nd class rather than in competition with TC. If RCGT is strong in your area, then this might not be for you. In our area its an attempt to save the idea of the class without clashing with TC and ruining both classes. At least, that is my perception. Rob or Kevin would have to confirm that.

home13oy75 06-25-2010 12:59 AM

I think it's a great idea.

abailey21 06-25-2010 05:57 AM

Your shooting yourself in the foot with an open ESC rule, the fact i'll need a thousand dollars worth of ESC's, a laptop, and all the PC hookups for the ESC's just to be competitive in a "21.5 spec" class would turn me, and new comers away in a heartbeat

HarryN 06-25-2010 06:18 AM


Originally Posted by abailey21 (Post 7588764)
Your shooting yourself in the foot with an open ESC rule, the fact i'll need a thousand dollars worth of ESC's, a laptop, and all the PC hookups for the ESC's just to be competitive in a "21.5 spec" class would turn me, and new comers away in a heartbeat

Well the idea will work just fine and it will bring in the more experienced crowd versus new people. Reason being is that the experienced folk have more of the high dollar stuff to remain competitive, no matter what motor they are running. Plus not having to learn or deal with non-adjustable ESCs and Motors is another plus for them, since they don't have to worry about others being on a same playing field as them.

As far as bringing new people in, USGT will definitely not allow that to happen. New people may come in, but promptly leave until they learn how much they have to spend and whose leg they have to hump in order to get advice on how to be fast like the fastest guys on the track.

Kevin K 06-25-2010 06:25 AM


Originally Posted by Kregger (Post 7587259)
After all the time you spent butting heads with people about diluting VTA and keeping the class together, why are you taking the risk of diluting RCGT and causing a rift.

We dont think this class will dilute Trans AM. People that like Trans AM will still race it. All this class is doing is allowing a set of rules to be run along with VTA and the next step up. This would also work for all the guys that want to make VTA faster....here you go here is USGT.


Originally Posted by mikel33 (Post 7587397)
..

I run with Rob a lot. In our area RCGT is all but dead. We have had a fair number of conversations about how to make the class different enough to make it attractive as a 2nd class rather than in competition with TC. If RCGT is strong in your area, then this might not be for you. In our area its an attempt to save the idea of the class without clashing with TC and ruining both classes. At least, that is my perception. Rob or Kevin would have to confirm that.

You are correct Mike....the whole intention of this class is to offer a second class thats not 17.5 rubber tire. ROAR changed everything with its new rules....13.5 is dead. Now its 17.5 and sportsman....as really no-one runs mod....so there is a place for this class for people to have fun with and enjoy a second class.


Originally Posted by abailey21 (Post 7588764)
Your shooting yourself in the foot with an open ESC rule, the fact i'll need a thousand dollars worth of ESC's, a laptop, and all the PC hookups for the ESC's just to be competitive in a "21.5 spec" class would turn me, and new comers away in a heartbeat

Thousand dollars...really. ESC...150.00 or less....Lap top...300 or less...pc interface 40 or less....Math wasnt my strong subject in school but I dont see 1000 dollars there. Plus not every ESC needs a Laptop to setup. This open ESC rule allows you to move up or down a class with no further expense now or down the road. If you make this class limited to say the Citrix ESC or system....and that person wants to move up a class they are now stuck with an 80 dollar paper weight. Where if they would have just have purchased an open ESC they would be set and ready to race just about any class.

abailey21 06-25-2010 06:38 AM


Originally Posted by Kevin K (Post 7588849)
Thousand dollars...really. ESC...150.00 or less....Lap top...300 or less...pc interface 40 or less....Math wasnt my strong subject in school but I dont see 1000 dollars there. Plus not every ESC needs a Laptop to setup. This open ESC rule allows you to move up or down a class with no further expense now or down the road. If you make this class limited to say the Citrix ESC or system....and that person wants to move up a class they are now stuck with an 80 dollar paper weight. Where if they would have just have purchased an open ESC they would be set and ready to race just about any class.

Tekin RS Pro - 210.00 https://www.ssl-stormerhobbies.com/c...s&pn=TEKTT1153

Hotwire - 40.00 https://www.ssl-stormerhobbies.com/c...s&pn=TEKTT1450

LRP SXX Stock Spec - https://www.ssl-stormerhobbies.com/c...ns&pn=LRP80910

Speed Passion GT - 200.00 https://www.ssl-stormerhobbies.com/c...=SPR98802PROCS

Speed Passion LCD box, 30.00

Total without computer, $480.00 and it's not like you wont need ALL of this, every week one of these is faster than the next so you'll need to change.

now computers, yeah you can get one for 300, but were RC Car guys, if you have a 300 netbook your buddies will tell you your a girl, you need at least the 500 dollar one, or your not a man that runs on road. so now your at $980.00 so there's your thousand dollars.

not to mention:
21.5 motors from every company, to make sure you have the fastest of course, so at 90.00 a pop you'll need an LRP, Novak, Tekin, Speed Passion, so for lack of rounding, we'll just 400.00, now your almost at 1400.00


and if you have open ESC, not one person will ever look at something like the Cirtix because there's no competing with the big boy lets go 70MPH in a 21.5 car ESC like the Tekin or LRP.

Kevin K 06-25-2010 06:53 AM

Adam have you driven a 21.5 open ESC car yet? Its not 70mph...to get a 17.5 car up to 70mph how long would your track have to be to reach that speed? 200ft long? Its about 1 second a lap slower then 17.5 open ESC....which is just about the right amount it should be back. Plus its much easier to drive and handle.

As far as the prices of the ESC's there are some cheaper then the ones you listed that will work in this class too.

If someone is telling you your netbook is weak then thats probably the same tool box that was sleeping outside the Apple store to get the new Ipad or what ever.

Motors....I dont see people doing that in 17.5 now where they have to have all the motors to race. Most people that I race with have 1 or 2 motors. If someone wants to buy all the motors then fine thats what they can do but is it needed to race this class? Nope.

drsfly 06-25-2010 09:03 AM

common sense!
 
Sanity is rarely rewarded!

I am however glad to see some. Here are some opinions of mine which in no way reflect Kevin & Rob's thought process.

GT is not meant to be the entry level class. VTA provides that portal.
It is however not going to be so fast with the open speedo 21.5 that it will be prohibitively fast if someone with a little experience wants to jump in.

It is and should be a sizeable speed increase over VTA. It is and should be a step up that gives these drivers a new challenge both with set up and with driving skills required.

It should be a bridge toward TC. I think it is painfully obvious that the open speedo now makes it impossible for a beginner to step straight into open 17.5
and last more than a few weeks. We all pontificate on how to garner a portion of the new hobbyists looking at RC racing and how to keep those already involved. This is a step toward both.

There will be those that do not want to invest further in the hobby and for them VTA is satisfying. There are those who look for a different challenge and this can provide for that need.
If they do not already have an open class speedo(because you know a lot of us already do) that investment will be for this class and for the next step which is a move into TC.

Now, will there be a need to have a slower or somewhat spec version of TC, I do not know. That may not be necessary as open 21.5 is close enough to open 17.5 that it should be manageable for those looking to make that step.

This separation of classes also makes a reasonable second class for the VTA guys to test the water as well as a second class for the TC guys that want a
little less pressure.

By the way I also know the Rs version is readily available for $160. No need for a pro version in this class --- or TC other than Mod.:smile:

I still hate the tires and think it should be TC tire but as long as someone is not trying to claim intellectual property for the initials RC (generic term for all products related) and GT from a series predating any RC version, I will acquiesce.

I intended to stay out of this as I will probably run 12th this season anyway but as that comic Ron White said"I lacked the ability" to keep my mouth(fingers) shut.

Looks good for club and series level racing.

Later,
Darrald

John.C 06-25-2010 09:06 AM

I'm a beginner and I'm fascinated by the argument that beginners cannot be competitive with the fast racers until the ESCs are spec'd. There is a notion that the playing field must be leveled for beginners and the best way to achieve this is by spec段ng the ESC. Another concern that I often see is with regards to the financial impact to the new comer of having to purchase the most expensive ESC to be competitive.

So, am I correct to assume that the following areas will have absolutely no impact to overall success of a beginner?

Build - A seasoned racer who applies the tips and tricks learned over the year to build and optimize their car will have the same end product as beginner who applied their limited knowledge to build and optimize their car.

Pre-race preparations - A seasoned racer who spent time to prepare their car (clean and lube bearings, rebuild differential, rebuild shocks, etc) will have the same end product on race day as a beginnner who might not have put in this level of effort.

Race day tuning - A seasoned racer who has applied their tuning knowledge and experience acquired over the years of racing will have the same end product as a beginner who has applied their limited tuning knowledge and experience.

Post race assessment - A seasoned and beginner racer will both have the same take away after a race that will be used to their advantage at the next race event.

Spec段ng an ESC will not level the playing field for beginners. We (beginners) will begin to close the gap when we start to master the various aspects mentioned above. This is the only way to rid ourselves of the beginner label. It is not by forcing the race director to spec the ESC, motor, or whatever you may feel is inadequate about your gear.

-John

TimPotter 06-25-2010 09:15 AM

John,

Good points and very valid. What spec'ing a speedo will do it is take one thing off the table. Not as many variables, so the new racer can concentrate on other items and get faster, quicker ( in some cases ) . It also helps the new racer with the fact they KNOW they have the right speedo. But spec'ing things like speedo are good for the overall class, and not just the new racers.



Originally Posted by double_green (Post 7589392)
Spec段ng an ESC will not level the playing field for beginners. We (beginners) will begin to close the gap when we start to master the various aspects mentioned above. This is the only way to rid ourselves of the beginner label. It is not by forcing the race director to spec the ESC, motor, or whatever you may feel is inadequate about your gear.

-John


pejota 06-25-2010 09:17 AM

They all have an impact. But the most important key to the success of a beginner is getting around the track in piece. So Race Day tuning has more importance than the other things you listed.

Open ESC/17.5 motors are insanely fast. Some new people have talent and skill and can put together 20 plus laps without tapping the pipes.

Other beginners can't drive a straight line at those speeds and end up breaking something.

If a beginner can't handle the speed, then Race Day Tuning goes out the window and all of the other aspects you mentioned won't matter.

Slow the cars down with motors and Spec ESCs, and then they can learn to drive. Once they learn to drive, THEN all of the other things you mentioned come into play.

home13oy75 06-25-2010 09:28 AM

I find this class attractive since most people have a 21.5 that they won't be using any longer after Sept 1. I'm sure you can pick one up pretty cheap when VTA moves to 25.5.

I never made the investment to buy a notebook since there is always someone with a notebook that has hotwire installed and is more than willing to allow me to flash my esc. Any really, who doesn't have a old notebook at home? If you really did need to buy one, do you really have to go buy a new one with 2 gigs of ram? I'm sure you can find one on ebay for $100-200 ... do you really need to buy a expensive notebook just so you can drag it around the pits? That's like saying I need to buy a 40k car so I look good when I roll in so no one will make fun of me.

Kevin K 06-25-2010 10:37 AM


Originally Posted by drsfly (Post 7589376)
GT is not meant to be the entry level class. VTA provides that portal.
It is however not going to be so fast with the open speedo 21.5 that it will be prohibitively fast if someone with a little experience wants to jump in.

You are correct Darrald....that was our thinking behind this class.


Originally Posted by TimPotter (Post 7589429)
John,

Good points and very valid. What spec'ing a speedo will do it is take one thing off the table. Not as many variables, so the new racer can concentrate on other items and get faster, quicker ( in some cases ) . It also helps the new racer with the fact they KNOW they have the right speedo. But spec'ing things like speedo are good for the overall class, and not just the new racers.

Tim....I agree with what you are saying it does take one thing away on the list of things that add up. With this class we wanted it to be in the middle so you can go up from it or come down from it if 17.5 open was too fast for you. A spec esc wouldnt be a good idea to go along with that idea. We said why make people buy a ESC just to race this class rather then use what they already have? If they are new they need to buy something and also if they buy an open esc they will not have to make another purchase later if they want to move up a class.

B.JUCHA 06-25-2010 11:24 AM

No Mazda bodies allowed ! :D JK. Good idea Rob & Kevin. Hope it works out for you!

TimPotter 06-25-2010 12:00 PM

Kevin,

Good points, my thinking is this speedo/motor combo is about retail cost of a good motor. And you get both... and if it doe snto work out, and people do not like to race, they have a great brushless bashing combo...


Originally Posted by Kevin K (Post 7589732)
You are correct Darrald....that was our thinking behind this class.



Tim....I agree with what you are saying it does take one thing away on the list of things that add up. With this class we wanted it to be in the middle so you can go up from it or come down from it if 17.5 open was too fast for you. A spec esc wouldnt be a good idea to go along with that idea. We said why make people buy a ESC just to race this class rather then use what they already have? If they are new they need to buy something and also if they buy an open esc they will not have to make another purchase later if they want to move up a class.


Kevin K 06-25-2010 12:33 PM


Originally Posted by TimPotter (Post 7589983)
Kevin,

Good points, my thinking is this speedo/motor combo is about retail cost of a good motor. And you get both... and if it doe snto work out, and people do not like to race, they have a great brushless bashing combo...

Yeah i can see that. Really with the way the rules are written you can use a Citrix ESC if you want it would be legal....it might not be as fast as some of the others but at lower cost its a good way to get your feet wet so to speak too.

corallyman 06-25-2010 01:01 PM

This could be the best post I have ever read on RCTECH, and to think it came from someone new to the sport. Awesome job John, I am guessing you will someday soon become quite good at this:nod:

Steve







Originally Posted by double_green (Post 7589392)
I'm a beginner and I'm fascinated by the argument that beginners cannot be competitive with the fast racers until the ESCs are spec'd. There is a notion that the playing field must be leveled for beginners and the best way to achieve this is by spec段ng the ESC. Another concern that I often see is with regards to the financial impact to the new comer of having to purchase the most expensive ESC to be competitive.

So, am I correct to assume that the following areas will have absolutely no impact to overall success of a beginner?

Build - A seasoned racer who applies the tips and tricks learned over the year to build and optimize their car will have the same end product as beginner who applied their limited knowledge to build and optimize their car.

Pre-race preparations - A seasoned racer who spent time to prepare their car (clean and lube bearings, rebuild differential, rebuild shocks, etc) will have the same end product on race day as a beginnner who might not have put in this level of effort.

Race day tuning - A seasoned racer who has applied their tuning knowledge and experience acquired over the years of racing will have the same end product as a beginner who has applied their limited tuning knowledge and experience.

Post race assessment - A seasoned and beginner racer will both have the same take away after a race that will be used to their advantage at the next race event.

Spec段ng an ESC will not level the playing field for beginners. We (beginners) will begin to close the gap when we start to master the various aspects mentioned above. This is the only way to rid ourselves of the beginner label. It is not by forcing the race director to spec the ESC, motor, or whatever you may feel is inadequate about your gear.

-John


snoopyrc 06-25-2010 01:02 PM


Originally Posted by Kevin K (Post 7588849)

Thousand dollars...really. ESC...150.00 or less....Lap top...300 or less...pc interface 40 or less....Math wasnt my strong subject in school but I dont see 1000 dollars there.

You dont even have to have the Laptop and interface. I can always find someone with SP or Tekin stuff who will change my ESC settings for me. Thats the good nature of fellow racers.

sportpak 06-25-2010 02:13 PM

Touring cars lack of definition has driven me to WGT. There is life after sedan racing folks.

Kregger 06-25-2010 02:14 PM


Originally Posted by Kevin K (Post 7588849)
We dont think this class will dilute Trans AM. People that like Trans AM will still race it. All this class is doing is allowing a set of rules to be run along with VTA and the next step up. This would also work for all the guys that want to make VTA faster....here you go here is USGT.

I was referring to the already existing RCGT class.
Trans AM and mini are the two strong classes by me.

C&B RC 06-25-2010 07:00 PM


Originally Posted by Kevin K (Post 7588849)
We dont think this class will dilute Trans AM. People that like Trans AM will still race it. All this class is doing is allowing a set of rules to be run along with VTA and the next step up. This would also work for all the guys that want to make VTA faster....here you go here is USGT.


.

Our two largest classes are mini & VTA in the winter, right now it's VTA.
There is definitely a division in VTA, basically A & B mainers. I'm a B mainer.
I want a second class to run. Mini is not my thing. Something intermediate.
GT fits the bill. I'll continue to race VTA but move my 21.5 to GT. Setups should be close. Older Chassises will still works and keeps the cost down. The Fast guys will still be fast (you can't beat experience) and they are doing it with GTBs , TA05Rs, T1s & XXX-S. What works for VTA other than cost is it puts driving skills & setup at a higher level of importance than what's the latest hopup to buy. GT opens the door a little but not too much, it's a perfect step before TC. Thumbs up!:nod:

reenmachine 06-26-2010 10:18 AM


Originally Posted by abailey21 (Post 7588764)
Your shooting yourself in the foot with an open ESC rule, the fact i'll need a thousand dollars worth of ESC's, a laptop, and all the PC hookups for the ESC's just to be competitive in a "21.5 spec" class would turn me, and new comers away in a heartbeat

+1.

I do think that 21.5/open ESC would be great fun and the perfect speed for door-to-door racing. However, if you want to run at the front you will have to continually buy the latest greatest ESC. This is what caused all the problems for RCGT and Sportsman TC in the first place.

I would argue that the slower motor you use, the more important the ESC becomes. At slower speeds, the effects of chassis setup issues are diminished, traction issues and tire wear aren't as big a factor, etc. There will be more people able to drive tight, smooth lines at this speed and less variation in car handling. Therefore it is extra important to have the best possible ESC at all times.

It's just like racing silver cans. The cars aren't all that fast, so it's easier to get them to be dialed, handling-wise. But if someone did a little more magic to their motor than you and has just 1000 more RPM on tap, it's all over for you.

JR007 06-26-2010 01:47 PM


Originally Posted by corallyman (Post 7590151)
This could be the best post I have ever read on RCTECH, and to think it came from someone new to the sport. Awesome job John, I am guessing you will someday soon become quite good at this:nod:

Steve

I agree too, in the most part. It is a very good post from someone with obviously fresh eyes on the situation.

I also agree in part wit hthe other posts regarding "removing one of the variables", but again, that alone will not make bugger all difference. In the end, some gear will be faster by manufacturing variances as much as anything else.

Now, having the fastest racers at the club freely sharing their ESC set-up's for others to try and catch them, THAT would be huge. Somehow I think there probably aren't enough of those guys out there though.....

DARKSIDE 06-27-2010 06:19 AM

open esc?...bad idea:confused:

A-Ko 07-11-2010 09:34 PM

In reading some of the posts. The thought that came to my mind is Touring Car is dying. I remember 15 years ago when carpet oval was big and factory drivers were racing stock, how can a privateer limited budget driver as me, compete against a driver who gets new tires, batteries, motors, escs, etc... on a weekly/monthly basis. When sedans came into the picture, the choice was easy. No factory drivers got into the primitive sedan class then and I could afford to run it on a limited budget.

Today SC Truck has come on strong. Again it is another primitive class that factory drivers, might not readily stoop to as of yet. When they do, their money and budgets could effect the structure and interest. Do I hate or despise factory drivers, not really, they really should be in their own classes competing against like drivers.

Today I participated in the ALs Hobbyshop race as 2nd part of the Assault series. I grabbed my 2wd mini for laughs (I needed tires) and chose to race stock. I never raced that surface with pretty high traction, my car was ok just needed more fine tuning (more than 2 hours). I have always ran stock but seems like a race like this today, it is a waste of time. Sure I can probably eventually beat the people like me but still would be 2 laps off the factory TQ. What is the solution, become a factory guy where I can afford expensive new cars, batteries, ESCs or find another class where it is more fair and balanced.

I have looked at USVT and keep getting told about USGT. I have raced the Tamiya Series for 15 years and find that the bigger classes are simpler classes. Mini is king. Why? It is cheap and simple. GT3 is another silvercan sedan class that is pretty big and simple. GT2 is a 17.5 spec Ballistic class (and motors of that type) fairly popular but with stricter rules and with BL insanity has fallen off. Next year they are going with 1 spec ESC/17.5 for GT2. GT1 has been 13.5 and will probably be 17.5 next year, it is dead. It seems the classes that change less are the ones people like.

I do see issues with opening the USGT class to unlimited ESCs, 21.5 motor and open ended tires, wheels and inserts. I have not jumped onto USVT or USGT mainly because they did not seem stable to me and they still don't. With Tamiya There are 2 tires to choose from one good for carpet, the other for pavement. I would think having it simplified like that would be healthy. Checking voltage, pre-tech another healthy move. I see the proposed rules favoring those who can afford and like to spend money. Don't get me wrong I will spend money if I really need to, even have a tekin RS + laptop. Yet I would rather run a class that does not take alot of work where I can just grab my car and go wih limited options KNOWING that I can be competitive anywhere I go. Many of my friends share this thought due to work, home ownership and families effecting time to totally prepare for a race.

If you want USGT to succeed you need to ask those who run it if they like the proposed rules then approach area tracks to get them on board. What is the point of having USGT with 1, 2 or 3 different rules depending on the track you go. Again another reason why GT3, Mini and Slash are popular and I run all 3.
Thanks for the reading, I will go back to watching. . .

smokefan 07-12-2010 06:43 AM


Originally Posted by DARKSIDE (Post 7595680)
open esc?...bad idea:confused:

+1

Headshot 07-12-2010 04:45 PM

excellent post A-KO.....the problem is ego. Some want to go really fast. They are always crashing, but "hey, look how fast my car can go......yours is too slow....."

Since you race Minis, how slow do they seem when there are 5 or 6 of you door-to-door-nose-to-tail lap after lap? They don't seem slow, they seem fast....it is all about the racing experience.

Most on here will scoff at you and ignore my comments as BS, but you and I know different.

sportpak 07-12-2010 06:15 PM


Originally Posted by Headshot (Post 7661461)
excellent post A-KO.....the problem is ego. Some want to go really fast. They are always crashing, but "hey, look how fast my car can go......yours is too slow....."

Since you race Minis, how slow do they seem when there are 5 or 6 of you door-to-door-nose-to-tail lap after lap? They don't seem slow, they seem fast....it is all about the racing experience.

Most on here will scoff at you and ignore my comments as BS, but you and I know different.


Hey, I'd gladly race with you guys anytime. A few guys make fast look good, the rest of us make it look terrible. It must be a basher mentality's obsession with buying parts or breaking 2 minutes into a run that the more honestly realistic just doesn't understand.

PitNamedGordie 07-12-2010 07:08 PM


Originally Posted by A-Ko (Post 7657842)
In reading some of the posts. The thought that came to my mind is Touring Car is dying. I remember 15 years ago when carpet oval was big and factory drivers were racing stock, how can a privateer limited budget driver as me, compete against a driver who gets new tires, batteries, motors, escs, etc... on a weekly/monthly basis. When sedans came into the picture, the choice was easy. No factory drivers got into the primitive sedan class then and I could afford to run it on a limited budget.

Today SC Truck has come on strong. Again it is another primitive class that factory drivers, might not readily stoop to as of yet. When they do, their money and budgets could effect the structure and interest. Do I hate or despise factory drivers, not really, they really should be in their own classes competing against like drivers.

Today I participated in the ALs Hobbyshop race as 2nd part of the Assault series. I grabbed my 2wd mini for laughs (I needed tires) and chose to race stock. I never raced that surface with pretty high traction, my car was ok just needed more fine tuning (more than 2 hours). I have always ran stock but seems like a race like this today, it is a waste of time. Sure I can probably eventually beat the people like me but still would be 2 laps off the factory TQ. What is the solution, become a factory guy where I can afford expensive new cars, batteries, ESCs or find another class where it is more fair and balanced.

I have looked at USVT and keep getting told about USGT. I have raced the Tamiya Series for 15 years and find that the bigger classes are simpler classes. Mini is king. Why? It is cheap and simple. GT3 is another silvercan sedan class that is pretty big and simple. GT2 is a 17.5 spec Ballistic class (and motors of that type) fairly popular but with stricter rules and with BL insanity has fallen off. Next year they are going with 1 spec ESC/17.5 for GT2. GT1 has been 13.5 and will probably be 17.5 next year, it is dead. It seems the classes that change less are the ones people like.

I do see issues with opening the USGT class to unlimited ESCs, 21.5 motor and open ended tires, wheels and inserts. I have not jumped onto USVT or USGT mainly because they did not seem stable to me and they still don't. With Tamiya There are 2 tires to choose from one good for carpet, the other for pavement. I would think having it simplified like that would be healthy. Checking voltage, pre-tech another healthy move. I see the proposed rules favoring those who can afford and like to spend money. Don't get me wrong I will spend money if I really need to, even have a tekin RS + laptop. Yet I would rather run a class that does not take alot of work where I can just grab my car and go wih limited options KNOWING that I can be competitive anywhere I go. Many of my friends share this thought due to work, home ownership and families effecting time to totally prepare for a race.

If you want USGT to succeed you need to ask those who run it if they like the proposed rules then approach area tracks to get them on board. What is the point of having USGT with 1, 2 or 3 different rules depending on the track you go. Again another reason why GT3, Mini and Slash are popular and I run all 3.
Thanks for the reading, I will go back to watching. . .

Hi A-Ko...

I'm definitely no going to scoff at what you wrote. You mentioned many things that are plaguing TC racing across the country. I have not run in the Asphalt Assault because I have other things like family to do things with in the summer time too.

But a couple of things stood out to me in your post:

"Sure I can probably eventually beat the people like me but still would be 2 laps off the factory TQ. What is the solution, become a factory guy where I can afford expensive new cars, batteries, ESCs or find another class where it is more fair and balanced."

"Don't get me wrong I will spend money if I really need to, even have a tekin RS + laptop. Yet I would rather run a class that does not take alot of work where I can just grab my car and go wih limited options KNOWING that I can be competitive anywhere I go."

Lets start with the top comment. I am a guy who deals with some of the restrictions you mention. I have a family that I put ahead of RC racing (and everything else). However I DO want to be somewhat competitive, if not good. I do this by working at it as much as I can. There are guys who have way more time and money than I do. I just except that and do my best...and have fun doing it. Don't get discouraged by the factory guys. Yeah I know when you are getting blown by, you wonder whats the point. Trust me I would have raced years ago if I didn't have that same feeling at one point. I found the right place to race and enjoy it...and NO I'm not the best...or a factory driver. But use the "fast" guys as a resource. If you do you will get better if that is what you really want.

Your second statement tells me that something like the Mini class is perfect for you. Inexpensive and easy to have fun with. The stock class you saw last weekend was Super Stock...you bet you'll see some fast guys running that. That class takes work to be fast at (not just money). That is not a set it and for get it class...no if ands or buts about that. However we have a good group of Mini racers that race at The Track. You should come out this fall and race (if you haven't or don't already). We also will have a GT class too, as well as USVTA and an open stock class. I think the GT class will be fun. I'm sure the real fast guys will stay in the open stock class, so you will have a chance to compete.

I guess I don't like to see guys who feel like racing is too much so why bother :cool:

mikel33 07-12-2010 07:28 PM


Originally Posted by A-Ko (Post 7657842)
In reading some of the posts. The thought that came to my mind is Touring Car is dying. I remember 15 years ago when carpet oval was big and factory drivers were racing stock, how can a privateer limited budget driver as me, compete against a driver who gets new tires, batteries, motors, escs, etc... on a weekly/monthly basis. When sedans came into the picture, the choice was easy. No factory drivers got into the primitive sedan class then and I could afford to run it on a limited budget.

Today SC Truck has come on strong. Again it is another primitive class that factory drivers, might not readily stoop to as of yet. When they do, their money and budgets could effect the structure and interest. Do I hate or despise factory drivers, not really, they really should be in their own classes competing against like drivers.

Today I participated in the ALs Hobbyshop race as 2nd part of the Assault series. I grabbed my 2wd mini for laughs (I needed tires) and chose to race stock. I never raced that surface with pretty high traction, my car was ok just needed more fine tuning (more than 2 hours). I have always ran stock but seems like a race like this today, it is a waste of time. Sure I can probably eventually beat the people like me but still would be 2 laps off the factory TQ. What is the solution, become a factory guy where I can afford expensive new cars, batteries, ESCs or find another class where it is more fair and balanced.

I have looked at USVT and keep getting told about USGT. I have raced the Tamiya Series for 15 years and find that the bigger classes are simpler classes. Mini is king. Why? It is cheap and simple. GT3 is another silvercan sedan class that is pretty big and simple. GT2 is a 17.5 spec Ballistic class (and motors of that type) fairly popular but with stricter rules and with BL insanity has fallen off. Next year they are going with 1 spec ESC/17.5 for GT2. GT1 has been 13.5 and will probably be 17.5 next year, it is dead. It seems the classes that change less are the ones people like.

I do see issues with opening the USGT class to unlimited ESCs, 21.5 motor and open ended tires, wheels and inserts. I have not jumped onto USVT or USGT mainly because they did not seem stable to me and they still don't. With Tamiya There are 2 tires to choose from one good for carpet, the other for pavement. I would think having it simplified like that would be healthy. Checking voltage, pre-tech another healthy move. I see the proposed rules favoring those who can afford and like to spend money. Don't get me wrong I will spend money if I really need to, even have a tekin RS + laptop. Yet I would rather run a class that does not take alot of work where I can just grab my car and go wih limited options KNOWING that I can be competitive anywhere I go. Many of my friends share this thought due to work, home ownership and families effecting time to totally prepare for a race.

If you want USGT to succeed you need to ask those who run it if they like the proposed rules then approach area tracks to get them on board. What is the point of having USGT with 1, 2 or 3 different rules depending on the track you go. Again another reason why GT3, Mini and Slash are popular and I run all 3.
Thanks for the reading, I will go back to watching. . .


Well, we definitely don't want you to go back to watching.

Our stock class this winter at The Track is 21.5 unrestricted or 17.5 restricted. There will be a spec tire also. We are hoping this class bridges the gap between vta an open TC. I think you would enjoy it and I would encourage you to come on up and give it a try sometime. A solid 17.5 motor and a decent (not spectacular) speedo will be very competitive. We are hoping this class draws many racers such as yourself who don't want to spend a bucket keeping up with the factory guys. Bring your mini along also, we have a very good mini program - basically TCS rules.

I will say this about the factory racers that frequent our track - they are very willing to help if you ask.

Anyway, I would encourage you to give our stock class a shot. We aren't even allowing TC bodies - race car bodies only please.

michael.

A-Ko 07-12-2010 09:54 PM


Originally Posted by Headshot (Post 7661461)
excellent post A-KO.....the problem is ego. Some want to go really fast. They are always crashing, but "hey, look how fast my car can go......yours is too slow....."

Since you race Minis, how slow do they seem when there are 5 or 6 of you door-to-door-nose-to-tail lap after lap? They don't seem slow, they seem fast....it is all about the racing experience.

Most on here will scoff at you and ignore my comments as BS, but you and I know different.

I dabble with minis but seem to enjoy the adjust ability of sedan.

Actually once I went Vegas on my Tekin, my efforts went into finding a setup that worked for speeds that 12 years ago would have been modified. Plus as a driver still getting used to the power. Usually it is rare for me to break or DNF a race. I like going fast but don't like what mod speeds mean as far as money and maintenance. So far these faster stock speeds are not that demanding on my cars.

A-Ko 07-12-2010 10:11 PM


Originally Posted by PitNamedGordie (Post 7662074)
Hi A-Ko...
Lets start with the top comment. I am a guy who deals with some of the restrictions you mention. I have a family that I put ahead of RC racing (and everything else). However I DO want to be somewhat competitive, if not good. I do this by working at it as much as I can. There are guys who have way more time and money than I do. I just except that and do my best...and have fun doing it. Don't get discouraged by the factory guys. Yeah I know when you are getting blown by, you wonder whats the point. Trust me I would have raced years ago if I didn't have that same feeling at one point. I found the right place to race and enjoy it...and NO I'm not the best...or a factory driver. But use the "fast" guys as a resource. If you do you will get better if that is what you really want.

Your second statement tells me that something like the Mini class is perfect for you. Inexpensive and easy to have fun with. The stock class you saw last weekend was Super Stock...you bet you'll see some fast guys running that. That class takes work to be fast at (not just money). That is not a set it and for get it class...no if ands or buts about that. However we have a good group of Mini racers that race at The Track. You should come out this fall and race (if you haven't or don't already). We also will have a GT class too, as well as USVTA and an open stock class. I think the GT class will be fun. I'm sure the real fast guys will stay in the open stock class, so you will have a chance to compete.

I guess I don't like to see guys who feel like racing is too much so why bother :cool:

1st para) My family is important to me also as well as Sunday church. Usually with Sunday races I am conflicted about going. So usually if I go on a Sunday prefer racing afternoon or going to a bigger race, which is not often. Factory guys don't really intimidate me, I know a few of them, just feel they should have their own class on a local level in stock. Which is probably why I enjoy the Tamiya series so much because there are no factory drivers to contend with and everybody has the same part availability.

2nd para) I dabble in mini but prefer sedan classes. USVA and USGT are interesting to me but not sure where the rules are headed. The motors and escs seem to keep changing. Going wide open on rules to try to attract everybody will still upset people when they find their equipment will not cut it compared to the others listed in the rules. Why cannot the rules at the top just limit to 1 or 2 spec tires, preferably premounts.

3rd para) My last statement was not meant to sound like I am packing up my toys and going home if things don't change. It solely meant I will keep watching this post. I have been RCing for 21 years and will continue it. I hope to be like one of my mentors who still does it in his late 70s and can be hard to beat on almost any given day.

A-Ko 07-12-2010 10:18 PM


Originally Posted by mikel33 (Post 7662193)
Our stock class this winter at The Track is 21.5 unrestricted or 17.5 restricted. There will be a spec tire also. We are hoping this class bridges the gap between vta an open TC. I think you would enjoy it and I would encourage you to come on up and give it a try sometime. A solid 17.5 motor and a decent (not spectacular) speedo will be very competitive. We are hoping this class draws many racers such as yourself who don't want to spend a bucket keeping up with the factory guys. Bring your mini along also, we have a very good mini program - basically TCS rules.

My concern is the 21.5 vs the 17.5.
I could buy a 21.5 buy the new Hobbywing and nobody in the restricted 17.5 would be competitive. Hobbywing is the real deal. I would think for RCGT you would be better off running 17.5 restricted being that it is a common motor that everybody has who runs BL. Leave the Unrestricted to stock @ 17.5. The problem with this scenario running the Hobbywing would kill the class because people do get into the "why bother".

TCS rules on the minis does that mean Sgrip, Mgrip and kit tires only or is it open? Regardless I am in need for new tires... :cry::lol:


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