No dismissal but ...what's the difference between that and simply using X-Patterns ?? :D You see how the whole tire thing starts to get muddled pretty quick. Just depends on WHAT you really want GT to be. Boy, if HPI would drop the price on the wheels and tires......this would be a no brainer ! :D

just to add i think this class should stand out in some sort of way...if it 21.5motors wit the realistic bodies...vta is so different from any other class out there..thats 1 thing that makes it appealing & unique..no reason why USGT shouldnt get that same uniqueness...just my thoughts:)

it was just a thought when i was eatting @ applebees:lol:

Ah....so it was the GAS that was talkin' !!?? :lol::D Good ole' Applebees....gotta love them riblets.

I'm sorry I guess I should have said Pete Waydo and the rest of us(we are a club and any new class has to be approved by the board of directors). I was just trying to explain how Pete and the rest of us solved the motor and tire problem. Someone on this forum once made a comment about the conflict between hobbyist and racers. Once racers get ahold of a class we tend to ruin it:nod:

well since I was bored...i built me a 21.5 USGT car...with my TC3/21.5 Ballastic...going to try some laps with it on the "cheaper" x-patterns and see what lap times are ....

Actually I should apologize....I didn't remember that Camarillo was the location and we were talking about the same thing ! :o:o For some reason I thought Pete and the Roadrunners club was in Arizona.

Thats cool man:D we are both passionate about Gt racing and want to see it grow. :nod::nod:

Thanks for the credit, but I don't really deserve it. Josh (AeRacer805) and I have been playing with the 21.5/no boost combo for at least a couple years now and for a long time were pretty much the only ones around here who appreciated how great it is. :lol: Then West Coast started Super GT and, IMO, got the tire spec just right, so we latched onto it. The '+' was just for the FF cars, but now that people aren't as afraid of them as they once were the '+' isn't really necessary. It's fun to run them together with the 4WD cars as each shines on a different part of the track.

Anyway, we love realistic GT racing, 21.5/zero is working great out here, and the Solaris spec premounts are working great for us as well. They're $28 for a full set, come on a great-looking spoked rim, and wear very well.

That being said, if a true national spec emerged for GT racing akin to how VTA is, I'd jump on the bandwagon in a minute in the interest of broader consistency.

USGT will be 21.5/spec :D

We will also be evaluating the tires as time goes on.

Why 21.5? Atleast with 17.5 people can still use up their old supply of 27 turn brushed motors.

Thanks Rob !! Our club appreciates that as we're already doing it.
My vote for tires is x-patterns (26mm) and/or Solaris (24mm). Let the driver have the choice since body choice is already there and appearance does count for something. On that note, concours for gt cars seems to have been lost in the mix a little. Notice the lack of submissions in the rcgt pics thread. Just my opinion but gt of all kinds has focused a bit to much on the performance side and forgotten part of the context,which is "cool factor" or "style points" or whatever you want to call it. Consider really putting an effort into generating concours interest again. That will also have an effect on how a driver will build the car ( ie: 200mm or 190mm, 24mm tire vs. 26mm, etc)

17.5 would be a lot easier on guys running rcgt or tc. I think using 17.5 will bring more ppl to the event. If you look at any club racing, 17.5 is the largest or 2nd largest class. In different variables. It just seems that 21.5 & 25
5 isn't leaving enough gap between the 2 motors. Non boosted 17.5 is a good step up in speed to vta 25.5


That's just my opinion

RCGT is all but dead and who cares about TC. I don't mean to sound hateful but that's the way it should be. The funny thing is that 17.5 actually created all the problems in RCGT. Between boosted esc's , timing, complaints about tire/wheel cost and WEAR, rcgt kind of imploded. The fact is that while you can fix the boost/timing issue, 17.5 STILL creates more tire wear for the majority of drivers involved than can be tolerated simply because it's just to damned fast for them. This was supposed to be a class that really caters to new drivers and those who DON'T want the high pressures of TC. Somehow the discussion turned to "How do we make it accessible for all the TC drivers" WTH ?? :weird:
Keep it 21.5. Let it be a separate class that has it's own appeal. I was talking with a TC driver yesterday. He used to be part of our club. When asked about racing in 2 classes, 17.5 TC and 17.5 RCGT he said he couldn't afford it. Huh ?? Well, Rather than try to race the same car and change set ups every time between the classes , he'd have to get another car to race GT. That means 2 sets of electronics , parts, etc. That's the REAL world, Not the easy proposition that some throw out as feasible.

IMHO, anything other than 26mm treaded tires is a mistake. I'm still undecided about the whole 21.5/17.5 thing. I'm not buying the whole "Find a home for the orphan motor" argument. Gonna have to get ahold of one and run it and see.

As for around here in my area, RCGT with 17.5/no boost is king, regardless of any other concerns.

Personally,I agree with you on the 26mm tires. The funny thing is that many people wanted changes to RCGT for that very reason. "Oh, the x-patterns wear badly. Oh, the x-patterns are too expensive. Oh, we shouldn't have more than 1 compound available, blah, blah, blah. I think you remember that thread.:nod: The "orphan" motor thing may not mean much and I agree. The fact is that the 21.5 is viable in some other classes but who really cares. VTA uses the 25.5 and it's basically unique to that class. The 21.5 is just a better answer IF we want to use tires that really aren't meant for 17.5 speeds, IF we want to attract new drivers, IF we want to provide existing drivers ANOTHER form of racing without the headaches of TC.
Here's another consideration. Just like VTA....try it. Next year when 17.5 ROAR sportsman rules are supposed to change and eliminate programmable esc's.....then consider upping to 17.5 IF AND ONLY IF enough people involved in the class want to.

Man, I told myself I wouldn't get to involved with this thread. It's not my call. The bottom line is that it appears GT groups will adopt whatever rules they want and I think most all of them will continue on that path. The genie is already out of the bottle....few to many will care to change 1 way or the other. Rob, you got your work cut out for you.

We've been running the originally stated USGT rules (21.5 open) with the exception of tires (X patterns only). That is how our class was designed before the rules on this thread were stated and we just haven't switched. It has rivaled VTA for numbers here in Omaha and has really thrived with solid A and B mains almost every outing. Most VTA guys picked this up as a second class and the speeds are faster yet still reasonable for guys still gaining experience. 17.5 I don't believe would have given the growth we experienced with this class. We have also had FF03's running with us and though they generally aren't contenders for a win some have been able to make the A.

I'm just stating this as a comment from the view of how things are working at the HobbyPlex in Omaha. See ya at TCS in a few weeks... oh wait wrong thread... :nod:

21.5 it is...cya in April

I actually think that 21.5 no boost is the right way to go for this class.

There is a great progression for the classes this way.

VTA 25.5 great nastalgia class especially for the older racers who don't have the reflexes they once had.

USGT 21.5 great controlable class for the newer younger racers that want to get into racing because of the recognizable looks of the cars and attracts the older racers who like the GT cars as well

TC 17.5 no boost TC bodies for the racer that wants to start getting serious about racing

TC 17.5 expert

Im with the 21.5 decision as well. As stated earlier, it provides a great progression in speed from VTA to Expert Sedan. It also provides a place for new people to the sport who dont want to buy new 25.5 motors or want to run the older style TA bodies to run before running 17.5 noboost/21.5 boosted sedan. (which is a slight issue at our local track. People new to the sport want the new style bodies, but arent ready skill wise for the 17.5 sedan class)

I think you lot in the US have got a much better handle on what the amateur racer needs class wise.

Here in the UK pretty much the slowest class we have in official races is boosted 13.5, some smaller race series run 17.5 but it is mostly 13.5.

At the big national series its Mod or 10.5, they are doing a 'clubman' national series this year for slower classes but I still think you guys have the better idea. Our classes are just too fast for beginners and if you do the 'clubman' series the level of competition won't be the same. Over in the US your top guys run 17.5, I can only hope the BRCA sees the light.

I wish we had well supported classes like GT and VTA as well, cos they look fun for when you fancy a more 'scale' racing experience.

Oh and I wish we had your prices as well :lol:

It seems many of us are finally getting the hint. Just curious...What type of tracks do you gents race on ? I wonder if maybe you have larger tracks in general and thats why the faster speeds. So what does the BRCA have to say when the question is asked ?? I also wonder if it's because you have a broader rc base than we do. Where smaller scale racing is all but a joke here in the US...You folks seem to have a healthy 1/14 and 1/16 scale core. That leads to more tracks being available as the requirements for space are less.

Some of the national tracks are massive tbh but that doesn't really excuse them for the classes. Back in the day the main national series ran with 27, 19 and open mod. These days its 10.5 and mod. Those two classes, well, there isn't hat much difference between them. At some of our larger tracks the mods get clocked at about 72/3 and the 10.5 gets clocked at about 65. Now thats nothing like it used to be and is a real issue for beginners. I guess lots of people haven't said anything because for them it isn't an issue. Me for example, I'm fine running 10.5 anywhere just about but when I see younger newbies coming to my local club its just sad really. There is a 10.5 limit at the club but its indoor carpet and 10.5 is crazy fast, they don't stand a chance.

Over in the US you guys have a much better structure to club level slower classes like 17.5 and 21.5, I guess people here don't complain cos anyone good enough to handle the speed is still here and anyone not good enough has already moved on. TBH at my club it would be impossible to implement lots of classes due to numbers. I don't really know the direction we should go in, all I do know is these cars are too fast for newbies and it puts them off.

Also, this 'clubman' series is such a step down from the main national series (~17.5 no boost vs 10.5 boost and mod). I just wish there was a middle ground. Maybe main nationals being mod and 13.5 and clubmans being 17.5 boost and non boosted. Anyway rant over:lol:

THAT was a rant ! :D You should see some of my posts.....now THAT'S ranting. :lol:
It's actually cool that you think that way. Without new drivers the hobby will just stagnate. Thankfully we've always had something to offer newer drivers whether it's TCS, VTA,GT or something else. I thought the Tamiya Challenge Series was available in Europe? Have you considered trying to start a VTA or GT class yourself ??

When I wanted to race VTA about four years ago. I just built a VTA car and set it on my pit. Practiced with it during the breaks. The other guys asked what it was and if we were going to start racing them here. I just said,"If theres enough interest, Yeah!" Next week there were three more VTA cars ready to go. Seems like the other guys were just waiting for someone else to show interest in VTA so that they would have someone to run against.

It made a great summer.

People are pretty resistant to new stuff here, I'd love to run VTA or something similarly UK equivalent for a laugh on a club night. But I'd find it hard to promote it 'cos I'm pretty obsessed with FAST TC's :lol:

Although a larger club I go to fairly regularly might be cool with running interesting new classes, numbers permitting. I'll have to check it out. We could have a traditional British sports car class ;). Hhhmm TBSC doesn't have quite the same ring to it as USVTA, haha.

Come on Jonesy I haven't torn anyone's stuff up but mine :lol: Really on a serious note I agree that 21.5 nonboosted would be a GREAT stepping stone from VTA to the 17.5 sedan class. Only thing I think is you should spec a tire just my opinion. I know as a father that foots the bill on my stuff plus my son and my daughter soon the less stuff I have to buy the better on the budget;)

Lol, you werent one of the ones that I was talking about Mr. Barton. :lol:

You are fully ready for the 17.5, it was the guys that were 10 laps off the pace in a 28 lap qualifier I was reffering to.

I agree, I would be happy with a spec tire as well, or maybe 3 diff. spec tires from 3 manufacturers so we have a choice of brand, but they all perform about the same.

This is not meant to be an exclusive list, but one to be able to see some of what is out there. I am thinking rather than a price limit, I will wind up changing the tire rule to read UNBELTED treaded tire. Most tires that fit the description also fall into the correct price range.


integy

*C22-Pro Street Max V1 1214C22

*C22-Pro Street Max V2 1215C22

*C22-Pro Street Max V3 1216C22

26mm V4 Rubber Radial for Touring Car C22357

26mm X2 Rubber Radial for Touring Car C22358

IWTC T27 EVO Racing Tire (1pair) IWTCEVO

Tamiya

53227 RC Touring Car M2 Radial Tires

51023 Medium-Narrow Racing Radial Tires

50419 Tamiya Racing Radial Tire

53214 Tamiya Super Grip Radial Tire

HPI
(multiple part # for different compounds)

5130,4514,4512 Super Radial Tire (Standard 26mm)

4521,4520 Low Profile Super Radial Tire (Standard 26mm)

4793 Vintage Racing Tire 26mm D-Compound (VTA FRONT)

102993 VINTAGE PERFORMANCE TIRE 26mm D COMPOUND

4790,4490, X-PATTERN RADIAL TIRE 26mm

4541, 4540 V-Groove Super Radial Tire (Standard 26mm)

I dont envy you. Well sometimes I do but not in the decisions that you have to make regarding these things. Yeah I dont evny you.

out of all these tires which ones have you tested so far??
& which ones you like??

Rob,

Is your intent to use a 26mm tire for this class or just an unbelted tire for this class? I ask because the Tamiya medium/narrow tire is 24 mm.

Larry

Food for thought
 

I've been doing this for a little over a year. However, I have attacked this hobby/sport/obsession with a vengeance and have improved rapidly. I started with a TA-05v2 in VTA and a mini cooper. This year, I got frustrated with the mini cooper and bought a TRF-417 and started racing in stock 17.5 rubber TC. We recently added a 21.5 GT class so the TA-05 got converted to this. We use USGT rules except we use X-pattern belted tires as spec. I'm a set-up fanatic so I'm confident that both my cars are set up really well for our track.

Last weekend, I was able to do 28 laps with my 417 in 6 minutes. I did 29 laps with my TA-05 GT car. We have some really talented drivers at our track and two of them race FF-03s in GT. They are about a half second faster than I am. When we leave the drivers stand at the end of a GT race, we are smiling, laughing, commenting on how much fun that was, etc....

There is a lot that can be taken away from this.

1. A faster car isn't always faster.
2. A more expensive car isn't always faster.
3. It all comes down to the guy holding the controller.

I know it was mentioned by someone else earlier but I think it's worth repeating. Perhaps the ideal spec tire may be the front tires we use for VTA. It's hard to beat these things for price and performance. I don't have any experience racing on asphalt, but they seem to work there as well as on carpet. We could throw HPI a bone by using these. They certainly deserve it for the support they have given USVTA.

Lastly, and I realize that this is kind of out there, but I would consider making this class or USVTA a molded bathtub chassis only class. We need new faces in on road racing and the big issue is cost. If one of these classes were limited to TC-3/4, Tamiya TA-0?, FF-03 type cars, it would be a lot easier for the noob to get started. Look at the success of the Tamiya M chassis cars. It isn't because of their performance.

I like the idea of one tire rule...just keeps the guys who normally dont run this type of tire from buying two or 3 sets to get the one that works best.... Im running whatever, cause in that list Ive only ran maybe 1-2 of those tires.. and Im not sure which was the better of the two....but hey, we will know come April....

well what are you running in USGT?:batman:

24 or 26mm tire or rim, rims just need to be spoked...

The HPI tires in Pro compound work well on carpet. Super Radials used to be as popular as Xpatterns way back when (90's). I have some of the others, and I will be trying them out.

As far as bathtub only, I think that's a bad way to go. Having seen a lot of 3 year old Xray cars and the like out there for VTA and RCGT/USGT/etc type classes, I would hesitate to get rid of all those cars that can be had for cheap because they have graphite plates. Tamiya 416 cars can be had for $200 used now, which is a crazy deal. Not to mention all the times I took a beatdown from a well driven TA05 when I had a TC5...

WOW, this is so Deja Vu !! :lol: Nice going Rob. I for one appreciate that your decisions so far are almost identical to what I'd perceived rcgt to become. My club is already running what we can now call USGT. 21.5, 24 or 26mm treaded tires on realistic rims, any all wheel drive or ff chassis.
On our asphalt,unprepared track the HPI x-pattern 4490 seems to do best but the 4790 isn't far behind. Depends on setup. We haven't had any experience with the Solaris yet but I know one driver has purchased them so we'll see.
Good call on the chassis choice. With the availability of excellent cars in the used market, there's no reason to limit choices. Each budget will be different and very few drivers can really exploit any possible advantage a more complex chassis might offer. Then again, we don't advocate really basic chassis like a TT01. We're honest though so nobody gets pissed about having a basic car. Make them aware that it MAY be a disadvantage until they can appropriately modify the car or get a more competitive model. In the meantime...the concentration should be on learning to drive and race rather than winning. Well done Sir !!

Think you are on the right path not restricting chassis. I picked up a Cyclone TC chassis in excellent cond for $70. The deals are out there and like VTA this class can be relatively low cost (if the racer wants it to be) while still having a competitive car. Only wish they raced GT in the Cleveland area because muscle cars don't do much for me aesthetically.

If cost is the defining factor, bathtub chassis are not the limiting component. I just picked up THREE virtually brand new Losi JRXS Type R chassis for less than the cost of a new luxo touring car, and I have an entire box of spares, to boot. I now have not only an inexpensive high end RCGT car, but also a sick VTA car, and a third to use this summer outdoors on asphalt.

Bathtub chassis cars might be cheap, but they aren't the only way to race inexpensively.

That rule would have eliminated the entire VTA class at your track this past Saturday! ;)

Mike Slaughter