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DARKSIDE 06-27-2010 06:19 AM

open esc?...bad idea:confused:

A-Ko 07-11-2010 09:34 PM

In reading some of the posts. The thought that came to my mind is Touring Car is dying. I remember 15 years ago when carpet oval was big and factory drivers were racing stock, how can a privateer limited budget driver as me, compete against a driver who gets new tires, batteries, motors, escs, etc... on a weekly/monthly basis. When sedans came into the picture, the choice was easy. No factory drivers got into the primitive sedan class then and I could afford to run it on a limited budget.

Today SC Truck has come on strong. Again it is another primitive class that factory drivers, might not readily stoop to as of yet. When they do, their money and budgets could effect the structure and interest. Do I hate or despise factory drivers, not really, they really should be in their own classes competing against like drivers.

Today I participated in the ALs Hobbyshop race as 2nd part of the Assault series. I grabbed my 2wd mini for laughs (I needed tires) and chose to race stock. I never raced that surface with pretty high traction, my car was ok just needed more fine tuning (more than 2 hours). I have always ran stock but seems like a race like this today, it is a waste of time. Sure I can probably eventually beat the people like me but still would be 2 laps off the factory TQ. What is the solution, become a factory guy where I can afford expensive new cars, batteries, ESCs or find another class where it is more fair and balanced.

I have looked at USVT and keep getting told about USGT. I have raced the Tamiya Series for 15 years and find that the bigger classes are simpler classes. Mini is king. Why? It is cheap and simple. GT3 is another silvercan sedan class that is pretty big and simple. GT2 is a 17.5 spec Ballistic class (and motors of that type) fairly popular but with stricter rules and with BL insanity has fallen off. Next year they are going with 1 spec ESC/17.5 for GT2. GT1 has been 13.5 and will probably be 17.5 next year, it is dead. It seems the classes that change less are the ones people like.

I do see issues with opening the USGT class to unlimited ESCs, 21.5 motor and open ended tires, wheels and inserts. I have not jumped onto USVT or USGT mainly because they did not seem stable to me and they still don't. With Tamiya There are 2 tires to choose from one good for carpet, the other for pavement. I would think having it simplified like that would be healthy. Checking voltage, pre-tech another healthy move. I see the proposed rules favoring those who can afford and like to spend money. Don't get me wrong I will spend money if I really need to, even have a tekin RS + laptop. Yet I would rather run a class that does not take alot of work where I can just grab my car and go wih limited options KNOWING that I can be competitive anywhere I go. Many of my friends share this thought due to work, home ownership and families effecting time to totally prepare for a race.

If you want USGT to succeed you need to ask those who run it if they like the proposed rules then approach area tracks to get them on board. What is the point of having USGT with 1, 2 or 3 different rules depending on the track you go. Again another reason why GT3, Mini and Slash are popular and I run all 3.
Thanks for the reading, I will go back to watching. . .

smokefan 07-12-2010 06:43 AM


Originally Posted by DARKSIDE (Post 7595680)
open esc?...bad idea:confused:

+1

Headshot 07-12-2010 04:45 PM

excellent post A-KO.....the problem is ego. Some want to go really fast. They are always crashing, but "hey, look how fast my car can go......yours is too slow....."

Since you race Minis, how slow do they seem when there are 5 or 6 of you door-to-door-nose-to-tail lap after lap? They don't seem slow, they seem fast....it is all about the racing experience.

Most on here will scoff at you and ignore my comments as BS, but you and I know different.

sportpak 07-12-2010 06:15 PM


Originally Posted by Headshot (Post 7661461)
excellent post A-KO.....the problem is ego. Some want to go really fast. They are always crashing, but "hey, look how fast my car can go......yours is too slow....."

Since you race Minis, how slow do they seem when there are 5 or 6 of you door-to-door-nose-to-tail lap after lap? They don't seem slow, they seem fast....it is all about the racing experience.

Most on here will scoff at you and ignore my comments as BS, but you and I know different.


Hey, I'd gladly race with you guys anytime. A few guys make fast look good, the rest of us make it look terrible. It must be a basher mentality's obsession with buying parts or breaking 2 minutes into a run that the more honestly realistic just doesn't understand.

PitNamedGordie 07-12-2010 07:08 PM


Originally Posted by A-Ko (Post 7657842)
In reading some of the posts. The thought that came to my mind is Touring Car is dying. I remember 15 years ago when carpet oval was big and factory drivers were racing stock, how can a privateer limited budget driver as me, compete against a driver who gets new tires, batteries, motors, escs, etc... on a weekly/monthly basis. When sedans came into the picture, the choice was easy. No factory drivers got into the primitive sedan class then and I could afford to run it on a limited budget.

Today SC Truck has come on strong. Again it is another primitive class that factory drivers, might not readily stoop to as of yet. When they do, their money and budgets could effect the structure and interest. Do I hate or despise factory drivers, not really, they really should be in their own classes competing against like drivers.

Today I participated in the ALs Hobbyshop race as 2nd part of the Assault series. I grabbed my 2wd mini for laughs (I needed tires) and chose to race stock. I never raced that surface with pretty high traction, my car was ok just needed more fine tuning (more than 2 hours). I have always ran stock but seems like a race like this today, it is a waste of time. Sure I can probably eventually beat the people like me but still would be 2 laps off the factory TQ. What is the solution, become a factory guy where I can afford expensive new cars, batteries, ESCs or find another class where it is more fair and balanced.

I have looked at USVT and keep getting told about USGT. I have raced the Tamiya Series for 15 years and find that the bigger classes are simpler classes. Mini is king. Why? It is cheap and simple. GT3 is another silvercan sedan class that is pretty big and simple. GT2 is a 17.5 spec Ballistic class (and motors of that type) fairly popular but with stricter rules and with BL insanity has fallen off. Next year they are going with 1 spec ESC/17.5 for GT2. GT1 has been 13.5 and will probably be 17.5 next year, it is dead. It seems the classes that change less are the ones people like.

I do see issues with opening the USGT class to unlimited ESCs, 21.5 motor and open ended tires, wheels and inserts. I have not jumped onto USVT or USGT mainly because they did not seem stable to me and they still don't. With Tamiya There are 2 tires to choose from one good for carpet, the other for pavement. I would think having it simplified like that would be healthy. Checking voltage, pre-tech another healthy move. I see the proposed rules favoring those who can afford and like to spend money. Don't get me wrong I will spend money if I really need to, even have a tekin RS + laptop. Yet I would rather run a class that does not take alot of work where I can just grab my car and go wih limited options KNOWING that I can be competitive anywhere I go. Many of my friends share this thought due to work, home ownership and families effecting time to totally prepare for a race.

If you want USGT to succeed you need to ask those who run it if they like the proposed rules then approach area tracks to get them on board. What is the point of having USGT with 1, 2 or 3 different rules depending on the track you go. Again another reason why GT3, Mini and Slash are popular and I run all 3.
Thanks for the reading, I will go back to watching. . .

Hi A-Ko...

I'm definitely no going to scoff at what you wrote. You mentioned many things that are plaguing TC racing across the country. I have not run in the Asphalt Assault because I have other things like family to do things with in the summer time too.

But a couple of things stood out to me in your post:

"Sure I can probably eventually beat the people like me but still would be 2 laps off the factory TQ. What is the solution, become a factory guy where I can afford expensive new cars, batteries, ESCs or find another class where it is more fair and balanced."

"Don't get me wrong I will spend money if I really need to, even have a tekin RS + laptop. Yet I would rather run a class that does not take alot of work where I can just grab my car and go wih limited options KNOWING that I can be competitive anywhere I go."

Lets start with the top comment. I am a guy who deals with some of the restrictions you mention. I have a family that I put ahead of RC racing (and everything else). However I DO want to be somewhat competitive, if not good. I do this by working at it as much as I can. There are guys who have way more time and money than I do. I just except that and do my best...and have fun doing it. Don't get discouraged by the factory guys. Yeah I know when you are getting blown by, you wonder whats the point. Trust me I would have raced years ago if I didn't have that same feeling at one point. I found the right place to race and enjoy it...and NO I'm not the best...or a factory driver. But use the "fast" guys as a resource. If you do you will get better if that is what you really want.

Your second statement tells me that something like the Mini class is perfect for you. Inexpensive and easy to have fun with. The stock class you saw last weekend was Super Stock...you bet you'll see some fast guys running that. That class takes work to be fast at (not just money). That is not a set it and for get it class...no if ands or buts about that. However we have a good group of Mini racers that race at The Track. You should come out this fall and race (if you haven't or don't already). We also will have a GT class too, as well as USVTA and an open stock class. I think the GT class will be fun. I'm sure the real fast guys will stay in the open stock class, so you will have a chance to compete.

I guess I don't like to see guys who feel like racing is too much so why bother :cool:

mikel33 07-12-2010 07:28 PM


Originally Posted by A-Ko (Post 7657842)
In reading some of the posts. The thought that came to my mind is Touring Car is dying. I remember 15 years ago when carpet oval was big and factory drivers were racing stock, how can a privateer limited budget driver as me, compete against a driver who gets new tires, batteries, motors, escs, etc... on a weekly/monthly basis. When sedans came into the picture, the choice was easy. No factory drivers got into the primitive sedan class then and I could afford to run it on a limited budget.

Today SC Truck has come on strong. Again it is another primitive class that factory drivers, might not readily stoop to as of yet. When they do, their money and budgets could effect the structure and interest. Do I hate or despise factory drivers, not really, they really should be in their own classes competing against like drivers.

Today I participated in the ALs Hobbyshop race as 2nd part of the Assault series. I grabbed my 2wd mini for laughs (I needed tires) and chose to race stock. I never raced that surface with pretty high traction, my car was ok just needed more fine tuning (more than 2 hours). I have always ran stock but seems like a race like this today, it is a waste of time. Sure I can probably eventually beat the people like me but still would be 2 laps off the factory TQ. What is the solution, become a factory guy where I can afford expensive new cars, batteries, ESCs or find another class where it is more fair and balanced.

I have looked at USVT and keep getting told about USGT. I have raced the Tamiya Series for 15 years and find that the bigger classes are simpler classes. Mini is king. Why? It is cheap and simple. GT3 is another silvercan sedan class that is pretty big and simple. GT2 is a 17.5 spec Ballistic class (and motors of that type) fairly popular but with stricter rules and with BL insanity has fallen off. Next year they are going with 1 spec ESC/17.5 for GT2. GT1 has been 13.5 and will probably be 17.5 next year, it is dead. It seems the classes that change less are the ones people like.

I do see issues with opening the USGT class to unlimited ESCs, 21.5 motor and open ended tires, wheels and inserts. I have not jumped onto USVT or USGT mainly because they did not seem stable to me and they still don't. With Tamiya There are 2 tires to choose from one good for carpet, the other for pavement. I would think having it simplified like that would be healthy. Checking voltage, pre-tech another healthy move. I see the proposed rules favoring those who can afford and like to spend money. Don't get me wrong I will spend money if I really need to, even have a tekin RS + laptop. Yet I would rather run a class that does not take alot of work where I can just grab my car and go wih limited options KNOWING that I can be competitive anywhere I go. Many of my friends share this thought due to work, home ownership and families effecting time to totally prepare for a race.

If you want USGT to succeed you need to ask those who run it if they like the proposed rules then approach area tracks to get them on board. What is the point of having USGT with 1, 2 or 3 different rules depending on the track you go. Again another reason why GT3, Mini and Slash are popular and I run all 3.
Thanks for the reading, I will go back to watching. . .


Well, we definitely don't want you to go back to watching.

Our stock class this winter at The Track is 21.5 unrestricted or 17.5 restricted. There will be a spec tire also. We are hoping this class bridges the gap between vta an open TC. I think you would enjoy it and I would encourage you to come on up and give it a try sometime. A solid 17.5 motor and a decent (not spectacular) speedo will be very competitive. We are hoping this class draws many racers such as yourself who don't want to spend a bucket keeping up with the factory guys. Bring your mini along also, we have a very good mini program - basically TCS rules.

I will say this about the factory racers that frequent our track - they are very willing to help if you ask.

Anyway, I would encourage you to give our stock class a shot. We aren't even allowing TC bodies - race car bodies only please.

michael.

A-Ko 07-12-2010 09:54 PM


Originally Posted by Headshot (Post 7661461)
excellent post A-KO.....the problem is ego. Some want to go really fast. They are always crashing, but "hey, look how fast my car can go......yours is too slow....."

Since you race Minis, how slow do they seem when there are 5 or 6 of you door-to-door-nose-to-tail lap after lap? They don't seem slow, they seem fast....it is all about the racing experience.

Most on here will scoff at you and ignore my comments as BS, but you and I know different.

I dabble with minis but seem to enjoy the adjust ability of sedan.

Actually once I went Vegas on my Tekin, my efforts went into finding a setup that worked for speeds that 12 years ago would have been modified. Plus as a driver still getting used to the power. Usually it is rare for me to break or DNF a race. I like going fast but don't like what mod speeds mean as far as money and maintenance. So far these faster stock speeds are not that demanding on my cars.

A-Ko 07-12-2010 10:11 PM


Originally Posted by PitNamedGordie (Post 7662074)
Hi A-Ko...
Lets start with the top comment. I am a guy who deals with some of the restrictions you mention. I have a family that I put ahead of RC racing (and everything else). However I DO want to be somewhat competitive, if not good. I do this by working at it as much as I can. There are guys who have way more time and money than I do. I just except that and do my best...and have fun doing it. Don't get discouraged by the factory guys. Yeah I know when you are getting blown by, you wonder whats the point. Trust me I would have raced years ago if I didn't have that same feeling at one point. I found the right place to race and enjoy it...and NO I'm not the best...or a factory driver. But use the "fast" guys as a resource. If you do you will get better if that is what you really want.

Your second statement tells me that something like the Mini class is perfect for you. Inexpensive and easy to have fun with. The stock class you saw last weekend was Super Stock...you bet you'll see some fast guys running that. That class takes work to be fast at (not just money). That is not a set it and for get it class...no if ands or buts about that. However we have a good group of Mini racers that race at The Track. You should come out this fall and race (if you haven't or don't already). We also will have a GT class too, as well as USVTA and an open stock class. I think the GT class will be fun. I'm sure the real fast guys will stay in the open stock class, so you will have a chance to compete.

I guess I don't like to see guys who feel like racing is too much so why bother :cool:

1st para) My family is important to me also as well as Sunday church. Usually with Sunday races I am conflicted about going. So usually if I go on a Sunday prefer racing afternoon or going to a bigger race, which is not often. Factory guys don't really intimidate me, I know a few of them, just feel they should have their own class on a local level in stock. Which is probably why I enjoy the Tamiya series so much because there are no factory drivers to contend with and everybody has the same part availability.

2nd para) I dabble in mini but prefer sedan classes. USVA and USGT are interesting to me but not sure where the rules are headed. The motors and escs seem to keep changing. Going wide open on rules to try to attract everybody will still upset people when they find their equipment will not cut it compared to the others listed in the rules. Why cannot the rules at the top just limit to 1 or 2 spec tires, preferably premounts.

3rd para) My last statement was not meant to sound like I am packing up my toys and going home if things don't change. It solely meant I will keep watching this post. I have been RCing for 21 years and will continue it. I hope to be like one of my mentors who still does it in his late 70s and can be hard to beat on almost any given day.

A-Ko 07-12-2010 10:18 PM


Originally Posted by mikel33 (Post 7662193)
Our stock class this winter at The Track is 21.5 unrestricted or 17.5 restricted. There will be a spec tire also. We are hoping this class bridges the gap between vta an open TC. I think you would enjoy it and I would encourage you to come on up and give it a try sometime. A solid 17.5 motor and a decent (not spectacular) speedo will be very competitive. We are hoping this class draws many racers such as yourself who don't want to spend a bucket keeping up with the factory guys. Bring your mini along also, we have a very good mini program - basically TCS rules.

My concern is the 21.5 vs the 17.5.
I could buy a 21.5 buy the new Hobbywing and nobody in the restricted 17.5 would be competitive. Hobbywing is the real deal. I would think for RCGT you would be better off running 17.5 restricted being that it is a common motor that everybody has who runs BL. Leave the Unrestricted to stock @ 17.5. The problem with this scenario running the Hobbywing would kill the class because people do get into the "why bother".

TCS rules on the minis does that mean Sgrip, Mgrip and kit tires only or is it open? Regardless I am in need for new tires... :cry::lol:

mikel33 07-12-2010 11:37 PM


Originally Posted by A-Ko (Post 7663023)
My concern is the 21.5 vs the 17.5.
I could buy a 21.5 buy the new Hobbywing and nobody in the restricted 17.5 would be competitive. Hobbywing is the real deal. I would think for RCGT you would be better off running 17.5 restricted being that it is a common motor that everybody has who runs BL. Leave the Unrestricted to stock @ 17.5. The problem with this scenario running the Hobbywing would kill the class because people do get into the "why bother".

TCS rules on the minis does that mean Sgrip, Mgrip and kit tires only or is it open? Regardless I am in need for new tires... :cry::lol:

We don't tech tires in mini for club racing. I don't even know the different tires.

We've done a fair bit of testing on the 21.5 / 17.5 front. We're pretty sure we can make it even. our thing is we have people with 17.5's and 21.5's all looking for a class and we're trying to get creative. We are definitely not trying to start something new. Stay tuned for more details on our thread. I don't want to hi-jack this thread too much, so stop by the thread for The Track and we can pick it up over there.

thanks!

michael.

A-Ko 07-13-2010 03:58 PM

Not trying to hyjack the thread but would hate to see a viable class be over saturated with many rules that can give advantage for some people when actually the class should be like running a stock slash in spirit. Also if I went to Strictly, The Track or Underground, would not enjoy everybody using different rules for 1 USGT class.

Kevin K 09-15-2010 11:56 AM

Its after Sept 1 now...Im sure Rob will have the rules up on the USVTA website soon.


If you show up at any of the tracks you listed and they have a USGT class there wouldnt be much that would change on your car...if they changed any rules for their track.

Also having done some more track running the 21.5 with open esc is very close to 17.5 with limited esc....so if you choose either power plant you will not have an advanatge either way.

snoopyrc 09-15-2010 07:35 PM

Just a few days ago I sent Rob a message saying now that VTA had gone to 25.5 it would be a great time for RCGT to go to 21.5. Especially since there would be all of those 21.5 motors out there for sale. I had not seen this thread at the time. So I did not know that he had introduced something similar to RCGT, which I think is too close to stock.

Nothing against HPI, whom I credit for the creation of RCGT, but when RCGT was created stock was 13.5. I may be wrong, but that is my understanding of what happened. Now days 17.5 with a good esc is as fast as 13.5 was then. That is quicker than RCGT was intended for. Since the class had not been cultivated it has died in many areas. I think in some parts of Cali it still thrives, but it is much like F1 in that it survives because of a handfull of diehards that show up. Just enough or not quite enough to make a class.

I think this is a good thing. I think there should be something like an RC SCCA class. With RCGT failing in many areas, USGT could be just the trick.

woodys3b 09-16-2010 03:58 AM

I guess great minds think alike. I had not seen this thread either but I saw the growing gap between USVTA and rubber touring car and the abundance of used 21.5 motors and put two and two together. I tried to make a class with all the elements that made VTA so successful, filled the gap and appealed to the younger folks that don't care for the vintage bodies. I called it Not So Vintage Trans-Am. :ha:

Same rules as VTA but with 21.5 motors, GT or Super Car bodies (no sedans)and TC tires. I wasn't successful in getting this going at our track but I don't give up easily. I would love to see this take off and be as successful as VTA.

Thanks Robk for your continued application of common sense to our sport!


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