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-   -   USGT (https://www.rctech.net/forum/electric-road/411122-usgt.html)

John.C 06-25-2010 09:06 AM

I'm a beginner and I'm fascinated by the argument that beginners cannot be competitive with the fast racers until the ESCs are spec'd. There is a notion that the playing field must be leveled for beginners and the best way to achieve this is by spec段ng the ESC. Another concern that I often see is with regards to the financial impact to the new comer of having to purchase the most expensive ESC to be competitive.

So, am I correct to assume that the following areas will have absolutely no impact to overall success of a beginner?

Build - A seasoned racer who applies the tips and tricks learned over the year to build and optimize their car will have the same end product as beginner who applied their limited knowledge to build and optimize their car.

Pre-race preparations - A seasoned racer who spent time to prepare their car (clean and lube bearings, rebuild differential, rebuild shocks, etc) will have the same end product on race day as a beginnner who might not have put in this level of effort.

Race day tuning - A seasoned racer who has applied their tuning knowledge and experience acquired over the years of racing will have the same end product as a beginner who has applied their limited tuning knowledge and experience.

Post race assessment - A seasoned and beginner racer will both have the same take away after a race that will be used to their advantage at the next race event.

Spec段ng an ESC will not level the playing field for beginners. We (beginners) will begin to close the gap when we start to master the various aspects mentioned above. This is the only way to rid ourselves of the beginner label. It is not by forcing the race director to spec the ESC, motor, or whatever you may feel is inadequate about your gear.

-John

TimPotter 06-25-2010 09:15 AM

John,

Good points and very valid. What spec'ing a speedo will do it is take one thing off the table. Not as many variables, so the new racer can concentrate on other items and get faster, quicker ( in some cases ) . It also helps the new racer with the fact they KNOW they have the right speedo. But spec'ing things like speedo are good for the overall class, and not just the new racers.



Originally Posted by double_green (Post 7589392)
Spec段ng an ESC will not level the playing field for beginners. We (beginners) will begin to close the gap when we start to master the various aspects mentioned above. This is the only way to rid ourselves of the beginner label. It is not by forcing the race director to spec the ESC, motor, or whatever you may feel is inadequate about your gear.

-John


pejota 06-25-2010 09:17 AM

They all have an impact. But the most important key to the success of a beginner is getting around the track in piece. So Race Day tuning has more importance than the other things you listed.

Open ESC/17.5 motors are insanely fast. Some new people have talent and skill and can put together 20 plus laps without tapping the pipes.

Other beginners can't drive a straight line at those speeds and end up breaking something.

If a beginner can't handle the speed, then Race Day Tuning goes out the window and all of the other aspects you mentioned won't matter.

Slow the cars down with motors and Spec ESCs, and then they can learn to drive. Once they learn to drive, THEN all of the other things you mentioned come into play.

home13oy75 06-25-2010 09:28 AM

I find this class attractive since most people have a 21.5 that they won't be using any longer after Sept 1. I'm sure you can pick one up pretty cheap when VTA moves to 25.5.

I never made the investment to buy a notebook since there is always someone with a notebook that has hotwire installed and is more than willing to allow me to flash my esc. Any really, who doesn't have a old notebook at home? If you really did need to buy one, do you really have to go buy a new one with 2 gigs of ram? I'm sure you can find one on ebay for $100-200 ... do you really need to buy a expensive notebook just so you can drag it around the pits? That's like saying I need to buy a 40k car so I look good when I roll in so no one will make fun of me.

Kevin K 06-25-2010 10:37 AM


Originally Posted by drsfly (Post 7589376)
GT is not meant to be the entry level class. VTA provides that portal.
It is however not going to be so fast with the open speedo 21.5 that it will be prohibitively fast if someone with a little experience wants to jump in.

You are correct Darrald....that was our thinking behind this class.


Originally Posted by TimPotter (Post 7589429)
John,

Good points and very valid. What spec'ing a speedo will do it is take one thing off the table. Not as many variables, so the new racer can concentrate on other items and get faster, quicker ( in some cases ) . It also helps the new racer with the fact they KNOW they have the right speedo. But spec'ing things like speedo are good for the overall class, and not just the new racers.

Tim....I agree with what you are saying it does take one thing away on the list of things that add up. With this class we wanted it to be in the middle so you can go up from it or come down from it if 17.5 open was too fast for you. A spec esc wouldnt be a good idea to go along with that idea. We said why make people buy a ESC just to race this class rather then use what they already have? If they are new they need to buy something and also if they buy an open esc they will not have to make another purchase later if they want to move up a class.

B.JUCHA 06-25-2010 11:24 AM

No Mazda bodies allowed ! :D JK. Good idea Rob & Kevin. Hope it works out for you!

TimPotter 06-25-2010 12:00 PM

Kevin,

Good points, my thinking is this speedo/motor combo is about retail cost of a good motor. And you get both... and if it doe snto work out, and people do not like to race, they have a great brushless bashing combo...


Originally Posted by Kevin K (Post 7589732)
You are correct Darrald....that was our thinking behind this class.



Tim....I agree with what you are saying it does take one thing away on the list of things that add up. With this class we wanted it to be in the middle so you can go up from it or come down from it if 17.5 open was too fast for you. A spec esc wouldnt be a good idea to go along with that idea. We said why make people buy a ESC just to race this class rather then use what they already have? If they are new they need to buy something and also if they buy an open esc they will not have to make another purchase later if they want to move up a class.


Kevin K 06-25-2010 12:33 PM


Originally Posted by TimPotter (Post 7589983)
Kevin,

Good points, my thinking is this speedo/motor combo is about retail cost of a good motor. And you get both... and if it doe snto work out, and people do not like to race, they have a great brushless bashing combo...

Yeah i can see that. Really with the way the rules are written you can use a Citrix ESC if you want it would be legal....it might not be as fast as some of the others but at lower cost its a good way to get your feet wet so to speak too.

corallyman 06-25-2010 01:01 PM

This could be the best post I have ever read on RCTECH, and to think it came from someone new to the sport. Awesome job John, I am guessing you will someday soon become quite good at this:nod:

Steve







Originally Posted by double_green (Post 7589392)
I'm a beginner and I'm fascinated by the argument that beginners cannot be competitive with the fast racers until the ESCs are spec'd. There is a notion that the playing field must be leveled for beginners and the best way to achieve this is by spec段ng the ESC. Another concern that I often see is with regards to the financial impact to the new comer of having to purchase the most expensive ESC to be competitive.

So, am I correct to assume that the following areas will have absolutely no impact to overall success of a beginner?

Build - A seasoned racer who applies the tips and tricks learned over the year to build and optimize their car will have the same end product as beginner who applied their limited knowledge to build and optimize their car.

Pre-race preparations - A seasoned racer who spent time to prepare their car (clean and lube bearings, rebuild differential, rebuild shocks, etc) will have the same end product on race day as a beginnner who might not have put in this level of effort.

Race day tuning - A seasoned racer who has applied their tuning knowledge and experience acquired over the years of racing will have the same end product as a beginner who has applied their limited tuning knowledge and experience.

Post race assessment - A seasoned and beginner racer will both have the same take away after a race that will be used to their advantage at the next race event.

Spec段ng an ESC will not level the playing field for beginners. We (beginners) will begin to close the gap when we start to master the various aspects mentioned above. This is the only way to rid ourselves of the beginner label. It is not by forcing the race director to spec the ESC, motor, or whatever you may feel is inadequate about your gear.

-John


snoopyrc 06-25-2010 01:02 PM


Originally Posted by Kevin K (Post 7588849)

Thousand dollars...really. ESC...150.00 or less....Lap top...300 or less...pc interface 40 or less....Math wasnt my strong subject in school but I dont see 1000 dollars there.

You dont even have to have the Laptop and interface. I can always find someone with SP or Tekin stuff who will change my ESC settings for me. Thats the good nature of fellow racers.

sportpak 06-25-2010 02:13 PM

Touring cars lack of definition has driven me to WGT. There is life after sedan racing folks.

Kregger 06-25-2010 02:14 PM


Originally Posted by Kevin K (Post 7588849)
We dont think this class will dilute Trans AM. People that like Trans AM will still race it. All this class is doing is allowing a set of rules to be run along with VTA and the next step up. This would also work for all the guys that want to make VTA faster....here you go here is USGT.

I was referring to the already existing RCGT class.
Trans AM and mini are the two strong classes by me.

C&B RC 06-25-2010 07:00 PM


Originally Posted by Kevin K (Post 7588849)
We dont think this class will dilute Trans AM. People that like Trans AM will still race it. All this class is doing is allowing a set of rules to be run along with VTA and the next step up. This would also work for all the guys that want to make VTA faster....here you go here is USGT.


.

Our two largest classes are mini & VTA in the winter, right now it's VTA.
There is definitely a division in VTA, basically A & B mainers. I'm a B mainer.
I want a second class to run. Mini is not my thing. Something intermediate.
GT fits the bill. I'll continue to race VTA but move my 21.5 to GT. Setups should be close. Older Chassises will still works and keeps the cost down. The Fast guys will still be fast (you can't beat experience) and they are doing it with GTBs , TA05Rs, T1s & XXX-S. What works for VTA other than cost is it puts driving skills & setup at a higher level of importance than what's the latest hopup to buy. GT opens the door a little but not too much, it's a perfect step before TC. Thumbs up!:nod:

reenmachine 06-26-2010 10:18 AM


Originally Posted by abailey21 (Post 7588764)
Your shooting yourself in the foot with an open ESC rule, the fact i'll need a thousand dollars worth of ESC's, a laptop, and all the PC hookups for the ESC's just to be competitive in a "21.5 spec" class would turn me, and new comers away in a heartbeat

+1.

I do think that 21.5/open ESC would be great fun and the perfect speed for door-to-door racing. However, if you want to run at the front you will have to continually buy the latest greatest ESC. This is what caused all the problems for RCGT and Sportsman TC in the first place.

I would argue that the slower motor you use, the more important the ESC becomes. At slower speeds, the effects of chassis setup issues are diminished, traction issues and tire wear aren't as big a factor, etc. There will be more people able to drive tight, smooth lines at this speed and less variation in car handling. Therefore it is extra important to have the best possible ESC at all times.

It's just like racing silver cans. The cars aren't all that fast, so it's easier to get them to be dialed, handling-wise. But if someone did a little more magic to their motor than you and has just 1000 more RPM on tap, it's all over for you.

JR007 06-26-2010 01:47 PM


Originally Posted by corallyman (Post 7590151)
This could be the best post I have ever read on RCTECH, and to think it came from someone new to the sport. Awesome job John, I am guessing you will someday soon become quite good at this:nod:

Steve

I agree too, in the most part. It is a very good post from someone with obviously fresh eyes on the situation.

I also agree in part wit hthe other posts regarding "removing one of the variables", but again, that alone will not make bugger all difference. In the end, some gear will be faster by manufacturing variances as much as anything else.

Now, having the fastest racers at the club freely sharing their ESC set-up's for others to try and catch them, THAT would be huge. Somehow I think there probably aren't enough of those guys out there though.....


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