R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-24-2010, 12:43 PM   #31
Tech Champion
 
Kevin K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: In a land of mini-mighty mental giants
Posts: 8,833
Trader Rating: 32 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to Kevin K Send a message via Yahoo to Kevin K
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evoracer View Post
Kevin, this is one of those things that I'm glad people are still talking about. There were many positive comments made toward limiting the batteries. Cost was the primary concern. Most drivers know the market pretty well. The 30c figure was thought to be the limit for the less expensive battery options. Once you go above that,cost seems to go up rapidly. So the question becomes "How can we help people enter the class at a reasonable cost based on ALL the necessary equipment".
On the other hand, you make a valid point. In the big picture, there's a point where by trying to solve one issue you create a bigger issue.

I'd like to ask the question openly again and see if this is worth revisiting.

Are we making to much of the "C" rating issue and actually making RCGT less accessible ?
Should we consider adopting a simple 5000mah limit?
Here is my POV on this....you are basically using the ROAR rules for Motors and ESC's so why not use the ROAR list of batteries? Failure to use this part as a reference for what lipo is legal can lead to someone having to buy another battery pack or packs. If someone new wants to start racing and they get into RCGT and have a blast and want to then move in to say ROAR sportsman class but the battery pack they first picked up was a non-ROAR approved pack they now have to buy another pack to move up a class. The same thing for someone who is looking at RCGT as a second class. They probably have a ROAR pack or packs already but are now in a situation where they will have to buy another pack to race this class. The class needs to be as cost effective as it can.

Really what should be happening is we should be pushing ROAR to make the sportsman class RCGT like....meaing using the Sportsman rules just open the bodies to all the cool looking bodies. Then I really think the class would take off. Too many people are looking at RCGT and think its only a HPI promoted class.

Also the C rating is really meaningless with the limited ESC's and 17.5 or 21.5 motors. You are never going to pull out a high load to take advantage of the C rating. I think there is too much weight placed on the C rating of packs. Racers are always about numbers and when we see a higher number in a battery pack we assume its instantly better. But the problem is there isnít a real way to check this C rating over 30 or 40C. I mean really I can start to sell packs at 100C rating but if no one has a machine to check that they can handle 100C itís never going to be proven wrong and guys would be lining up to buy them because of the higher number.
__________________
2013 USVTA World Champion of the World
MOTIV RC presents the Midwest All-Star Carpet Series....15th year running 2017/18!!!
USVTA National Championship....check it out!!!
Im only responsible for what I say NOT what you understand.
Kevin K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 02:08 PM   #32
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: NY/FL
Posts: 3,376
Trader Rating: 24 (100%+)
Default

I'll let you tackle ROAR to push for changes to Sportsman.
As for C ratings, I agree. Or maybe I'm just one of those sportsman drivers that would never see the minute difference.
As for adopting the ROAR battery list. I won't advocate that since I firmly believe there are way to many decent batteries out there that anyone on a budget should have access to. You're right about newbies who move up to ROAR racing classes and if they're thinking that far ahead then they should buy whats appropriate. As for existing racers...if they already have ROAR approved batteries then why would they have to buy another for RCGT ? You confused me on that one.
I speak as one of those sportsman drivers on a budget looking for what I need and can afford. All my packs are Zippy 4000's. Never had a problem in over a year and they cost $25 a piece. The ROAR list is a good reference and anybody needing those batteries should follow it. But there doesn't seem to be any good argument to start implementing a lot of ROAR guidelines when RCGT isn't a ROAR program.
If a change to the battery rule needs to be done, then lets make it for the sake of bettering RCGT and not keep looking to make RCGT part of anything else.

So does anybody have any particular issues with opening the battery rule up and simply making it "Any Lipo 2S up to a maximum of 5000mah. Hard case packs are highly suggested"
Evoracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 02:20 PM   #33
Tech Elite
 
reenmachine's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Studio City, CA
Posts: 2,539
Trader Rating: 26 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evoracer View Post
So does anybody have any particular issues with opening the battery rule up and simply making it "Any Lipo 2S up to a maximum of 5000mah. Hard case packs are highly suggested"
It would be fine with me. Originally I wanted something draconian like 3800mAh 30C limit, just to make it so someone could grab a $30 Zippy and be fine. Like you, I was looking more at cost of entry for the new racer than the existing racer adding a second class. It's a valid point that most existing racers have batteries that exceed 30C rating already. Also, new racers may be better served by buying something they can grow with.

Really, the one main thing I was interested in was adopting the ROAR Sportsman ESC list and we did that, and the tire issue comes in second. Everything else is small potatoes, performance-wise.

Last on-road race I ran one heat with a ThunderPower 5200mAh 50C pack and the other with a Tekin 3400mAh 23C pack. The lighter weight negated the performance difference and I ran very similar times.
__________________
Pete Waydo
2010 Big Fat Turkey Race Mini Cooper AAA Main Champion
*** currently in stasis ***
reenmachine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 02:22 PM   #34
Tech Master
 
JCarr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dayton,OH
Posts: 1,244
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evoracer View Post
I'll let you tackle ROAR to push for changes to Sportsman.
As for C ratings, I agree. Or maybe I'm just one of those sportsman drivers that would never see the minute difference.
As for adopting the ROAR battery list. I won't advocate that since I firmly believe there are way to many decent batteries out there that anyone on a budget should have access to. You're right about newbies who move up to ROAR racing classes and if they're thinking that far ahead then they should buy whats appropriate. As for existing racers...if they already have ROAR approved batteries then why would they have to buy another for RCGT ? You confused me on that one. I speak as one of those sportsman drivers on a budget looking for what I need and can afford. All my packs are Zippy 4000's. Never had a problem in over a year and they cost $25 a piece. The ROAR list is a good reference and anybody needing those batteries should follow it. But there doesn't seem to be any good argument to start implementing a lot of ROAR guidelines when RCGT isn't a ROAR program.
If a change to the battery rule needs to be done, then lets make it for the sake of bettering RCGT and not keep looking to make RCGT part of anything else.

So does anybody have any particular issues with opening the battery rule up and simply making it "Any Lipo 2S up to a maximum of 5000mah. Hard case packs are highly suggested"
Just throwing my thoughts out here. I don't race RCGT but we have a sportman class that is similar. the problem with the C rating limit is guys already have packs that are 40 and 50 C and now they would have to go back and buy 30C packs to be legal. Weather that is just for local races or the large sanctioned races it's kinda hard to have to buy packs just for that.
__________________
Gorilla Size Racing

R10 USGT, TRF416 USGT, DB10R, TA05R VTA, R40, RS4 3SS, RS4 super, Savage, Hellfire.

Youthful enthusiasm only rules until old age and common sense exert themselves
JCarr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 02:26 PM   #35
Tech Champion
 
Kevin K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: In a land of mini-mighty mental giants
Posts: 8,833
Trader Rating: 32 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to Kevin K Send a message via Yahoo to Kevin K
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evoracer View Post
So does anybody have any particular issues with opening the battery rule up and simply making it "Any Lipo 2S up to a maximum of 5000mah. Hard case packs are highly suggested"
No thanks on the ROAR thing....

Say a racer has 5200 or 5600 something over 5000 packs and they want to race RCGT they now have to buy a lower "quality" so they will think....to race in RCGT. Why not just make it ANY Hard Case 7.2V lipo pack....and be done? This way it works every direction.
__________________
2013 USVTA World Champion of the World
MOTIV RC presents the Midwest All-Star Carpet Series....15th year running 2017/18!!!
USVTA National Championship....check it out!!!
Im only responsible for what I say NOT what you understand.
Kevin K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 02:31 PM   #36
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: NY/FL
Posts: 3,376
Trader Rating: 24 (100%+)
Default

Now wasn't that easy !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evoracer View Post

1. Bodies: Any 190mm or 200mm realistic GT type body (no touring class racing bodies such as Stratus or Mazda 6). Molded kit wings or aftermarket wings are highly suggested. Lexan wings must be of proportionate size. Lexan wings are not allowed in Concours.

2. Tires: HPI X-Pattern tires, part #s 4790, 4490 and 4495 are the official spec tire of RCGT. Alternate tires may be used at the race organizer's discretion, but all HPI supported RCGT events will use the x-pattern tires.

3. Inserts: For HPI X-Pattern tires the stock insert must be used. All alternate tires choices may use any insert. Race organizer may define specific choices.

4. Wheels: Any REALISTIC spoke type 26mm wheel may be used. No aero dish or lightweight racing wheels allowed.

5. Motors/Esc's: Any 21.5 or 17.5 brushless motor/esc as shown on the ROAR Sportsman list. In addition, the Speed Passion Cirtix 21.5 and 17.5 are allowed.

6. Chassis: Any 1/10 scale all wheel drive touring car chassis. Minimum weight requirement is 1475 grams.

7. Batteries: Any Lipo 2S packs up to a maximum of 5000mah. Hard case packs are highly suggested. (revised)

We all hope the revised rules will help everybody continue to enjoy the RCGT program. I should also say that we'll do our best to consider and make revisions when necessary. We can't plan for everything but we'll try and catch up to them as quickly as possible. Thanks again to all of you !!!!
Evoracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 02:35 PM   #37
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: NY/FL
Posts: 3,376
Trader Rating: 24 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin K View Post
No thanks on the ROAR thing....

Say a racer has 5200 or 5600 something over 5000 packs and they want to race RCGT they now have to buy a lower "quality" so they will think....to race in RCGT. Why not just make it ANY Hard Case 7.2V lipo pack....and be done? This way it works every direction.
I'll tell you what....you get VTA to adopt that suggestion and then we'll talk.
Evoracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 02:41 PM   #38
Tech Champion
 
Kevin K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: In a land of mini-mighty mental giants
Posts: 8,833
Trader Rating: 32 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to Kevin K Send a message via Yahoo to Kevin K
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evoracer View Post
I'll tell you what....you get VTA to adopt that suggestion and then we'll talk.
Really....ok well good luck with HPI RCGT.
__________________
2013 USVTA World Champion of the World
MOTIV RC presents the Midwest All-Star Carpet Series....15th year running 2017/18!!!
USVTA National Championship....check it out!!!
Im only responsible for what I say NOT what you understand.
Kevin K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 02:55 PM   #39
Tech Elite
 
M-Technic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 2,562
Trader Rating: 15 (100%+)
Default

ROAR Spec battery rules sounds best to me. As long as it's ROAR approved its legal.
__________________
RCAmerica | Xray | Hudy | Radiopost | Speed Passion USA | Trinity | P3 Graphics
M-Technic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 03:07 PM   #40
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: NY/FL
Posts: 3,376
Trader Rating: 24 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M-Technic View Post
ROAR Spec battery rules sounds best to me. As long as it's ROAR approved its legal.
Any club or event could require batteries to ROAR spec. Really up to you if you want to push it.
Evoracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 04:28 PM   #41
Tech Master
 
FREAKAH's Avatar
R/C Tech Elite Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,389
Default

+1 on the revised battery rule. All my packs are TP 5000 40c, 'cept for my dedicated F1 stick pack.


And about the lexan wing being proportionate. Lot of grey area. Depends on one's perpective. Imagine the perspective of a drifter.

How about lexan wings must be cut down to a maximum 1/2" hight from main element to top of lip/gurney?

15mm?
__________________
Second-Hand Racing
RACE WORLD HAWAII
Losi Type-R |Tamiya F104 PRO | Tamiya F103 | Mugen MTX-4R | AE FT GT2
FREAKAH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 04:52 PM   #42
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,906
Trader Rating: 9 (100%+)
Default

What's your guys input on FF cars? What if your club doesn't have enough people to run a FF class? Should they be allowed to run with the 4wd?

I wanted some ideas so this new breed can co-exist, and better spread the whole RC = scale idea. Here is my input:

1. Bodies: Same rule applies, but the FF bodies tend to be narrower (around 180mm) to keep the scale aspect true. FF cars must use FF bodies.

2. Tires/inserts/wheels: same rules apply

3. Motor/esc/batt: same rules

4. Chassis: minimum weight to be 1325 to compensate for the traction disadvantage.

What you guys think?
__________________
Lost in RC limbo
inpuressa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 05:31 PM   #43
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: NY/FL
Posts: 3,376
Trader Rating: 24 (100%+)
Default

FREAKAH, Pete and I did discuss that. Really, don't get to hung up on that. Its actually pretty simple. If you have a tech station, its up to them or the race director to decide if a wing is to large. If you dont tech, use the realistic wings as a guide. Even a decent drift wing is better than some of those barn door lexan wings. Pretty hard to compare most lexans with drift wings though....the standoffs on the lexan are usually fairly low. Its mostly that deep cut, large dimension, TC style wing we're trying to get rid of.

Inpuressa, If your club allows the FF cars to run, thats fine. But on the national level I doubt it'll happen. Heck, Tamiya doesn't even mix them with their GT classes. I can't see establishing a second set of rules for a one design chassis.
Evoracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 05:37 PM   #44
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,906
Trader Rating: 9 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evoracer View Post
FREAKAH, Pete and I did discuss that. Really, don't get to hung up on that. Its actually pretty simple. If you have a tech station, its up to them or the race director to decide if a wing is to large. If you dont tech, use the realistic wings as a guide. Even a decent drift wing is better than some of those barn door lexan wings. Pretty hard to compare most lexans with drift wings though....the standoffs on the lexan are usually fairly low. Its mostly that deep cut, large dimension wing that we're trying to get rid of.

Inpuressa, If your club allows the FF cars to run, thats fine. But on the national level I doubt it'll happen. Heck, Tamiya doesn't even mix them with their GT classes. I can't see establishing a second set of rules for a one design chassis.
I guess being it FF has some sort of unfair advantage against 4wd unless I strap an anvil to the car. I have a feeling it will be banned from my local club too. Too bad, as people are consistently complaining about how expensive it is to get into the hobby and how maintenance intensive TC cars are.
__________________
Lost in RC limbo
inpuressa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 06:04 PM   #45
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: NY/FL
Posts: 3,376
Trader Rating: 24 (100%+)
Default

Don't give up just yet. Won't hurt to ask. Good Luck.

So is anybody racing RCGT this weekend ??
Evoracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
RCGT USA charlie_b Racing Forum 894 09-23-2010 04:43 PM
2009 HPI Challenge andyh Racing Forum 698 04-20-2010 06:54 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 10:38 AM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net