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Old 06-24-2010, 12:25 PM   #46
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Maybe a good way for things to go will be that there will be two driver classes of racing in each form of car. So, TC, 1/12, WGT, etc. would each get two driver divisions, Amateur or Pro.

Amateur - A speed regulation rule that gives a person a chance at learning some important stepping stones to the next level. Driving and set-up skills would be the focus. Some form of controlled power plant for speed regulation, either with motor/esc, battery, or maybe even gearing too will be put in place. I am not sure what is the best way to go with a control mechanism, but, I think that with the input by many, and points that are being brought up, here in this thread, a good solution will be found. It'll never be absolutely perfect, as there will always be those looking to find a loop-hole, but, something needs to be put in place. It can always be adjusted over time, I guess yearly, for something that got overlooked. I know that there will always be reasons for those to try "cheat" to be faster in some way. The pressure is there for a manufacturer to look like the best choice, because of success needed to stay in business, etc., I understand. Unfortunately, as in racing, not everyone can win. Maybe if they see that by just producing good quality, well thought out designs and having good service and support at a reasonable price, will equal good sales and allow them stay in business. Sanctions can still be put in place to help keep an honest mind-set prevalent, but, even with any of this in place, there will always be those that will still look for loop-holes to gain an advantage. This is always going to be true, just a fact. Basically, everyone has their own honesty mirror to look into as how to answer that. Racers and manufacturers alike. Oh, and I suppose, no sponsored racers in this driver class either.

Pro - just open the motor/esc rules. - Same basic car rules, width, weight, battery voltage, wing size, etc. for any given car type, TC, 1/12, WGT, etc. This allows for new technology to develop at a higher level. I never would want that to stop, life would get very boring if it did. After that, same basic principals apply as Amateur, driving and set-up skill, just with the faster speeds. An new challenge. What you learned to get to a competitive level in Amateur, will help you deal with the extra speed Pro level will let you have.

Very simple, then we can just go racing. The abilities of drivers will qualify them where they belong in the "Pro" level, and the "Amateur" will be a training ground for Pro. With the speed in check at the Amateur level, driving and set-up will be a premium, and when you get that honed in, the move up to "Pro" will be a lot smoother. Not sure if a system needs to be put in place to force an amateur to move up when a certain number of races have been won, so we don't get a dominator running amateur all the time, but, even if someone did do that, it should just give those behind more incentive to catch that person. You would hope that a driver would eventually get bored and just want to move up, so, in a way, it may just prove to be self-regulating actually. I suppose you might not want to let a Pro drop back down, but, on the other hand, why not? A good driver/set-up person will always show everyone else that it is possible to go faster, and by showing what is possible, it will show/force them to follow and improve as well. If any other driver can do it, so can I, should be the prevalent mind set. No one would ever have a chance at winning anything if they did not think this way. Everyone should always go into a race wanting to win, to beat the person ahead of them. Isn't that the definition of what we are doing?

Simpler is always better, easier, more fun, with less stress having to think about all the rules and regulations and more emphasis on the basics... good driving and prepping. .
Just thinking positively.
Enough talk, lets do it, and go racing.
Awesome...let's do it Alex!!

Oh wait!! Someone has to bring up, "Okay now that's settled, what motors in these classes are we designating Amateur and Pro?"

Leave no stone unturned buddy
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Old 06-24-2010, 12:50 PM   #47
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Sky,

I think your original post was a very valid discussion point, as I responded to it on the previous page. I just think that debating on whether people will spend the time cracking the code on spec ESC's to win a bowling trophy or have bragging rights, is a little far fetched and adds negativity to a segment of the hobby that needs some life. But if you find that interesting, it's your thread...debate away.

I'd hoped this thread would have discussed what type of racing will be popular at local venues...and possibly how it affects attendance and racer satisfaction.

I'll leave your thread alone. Thanks.
Don't get me wrong, I just that that kind of info simply amazes me, I am pretty clueless when it comes to that sort of stuff. I started a thread last year called, "EDDIE O was right" it went south pretty quick, but way back in the day, when brushless started he told me and other locals that where we are at right now, was going to happen, I thought he was full of crap, how the heck are you going to make a simple little esc do all that. well, I'm a dumbass and will freely admit it. I know some find it boring, but I find it interesting. I also find it interesting at none of the rule makers have bother to debate any of this although I know they are reading it.
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Old 06-24-2010, 01:00 PM   #48
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Maybe..., and go racing.
Just do it
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Old 06-24-2010, 01:27 PM   #49
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Awesome...let's do it Alex!!

Oh wait!! Someone has to bring up, "Okay now that's settled, what motors in these classes are we designating Amateur and Pro?"

Leave no stone unturned buddy
A consensus has to be reached for Amateur, but I think that it doesn't have to be rocket science. Hopefully close to what is already being used in most types of cars will work, so not too much purchasing of new equipment will be necessary.

Pro is pretty easy - any wind, any esc. No need to refine too many of the other rules as they fit each car class pretty well figured out already. Power plant is really going to be a driver decided issue. If you can beat a racer running a 4.5 motor with your 13.5 w/dynamic timing esc, do it. Since its all about getting the right set-up, for each track, driver, or condition, it will require the skill to make a proper decision by each individual as to what to run to win with. Thats what being in this driver class is all about.

Amateur - Well... starting points - TC 17.5 or 21.5, 1/12 17.5 or 13.5, WGT 13.5, maybe 10.5 ,since no esc timing might actually be too slow for WGT, VTA is already 25.5, scale spec, probably the same as VTA. The effort will be to get the speed at a reasonable level and as close together as possible. There will als=ways be those that take the time to be sure their drivetrain has the least amount of friction, or other ways to get that small percentage of difference, but that will never go away. We can only get so close. We can never get anywhere if we don't just put the basics in place. Again, lets just do it, and get to racing.

There will no doubt be a need for a little refinement for Amateur, we can just start with whats been happening with the esc regulation ideas and gearing pieces already starting to be put in place, the stock firmware settable and purely stock (no dynamic) esc's that already exsist. I am not ignoring the points brought up about the way around the software issues brought up earlier. I suppose even 1s vs 2s batteries could help in the equation. I am sure there are enough of us with ideas and experience to put together a logical starting point with any other options we come up with being employed. We should just set a date for the new rules to be employed. The pressure of that will cause us to put pencil to paper and make something happen. Maybe just after the nats.

I have thoughts about how this will effect club racing, and the more I think about it, it will be a good thing there as well. I have some answers to how to run race programs on any given race day depending on turnouts for any class of car as well as driver level. I can elaborate if anyone is interested.

Simplicity will be the key. Something our club president stresses often and has been very successful employing. In a bit over a year we started a whole new club, from the ashes of a the loss of most others around here. We lay out an indoor carpet track in under a half an hour and we are racing. With many racers too, new ones coming on board regularly, and many former ones coming back as well. There were many that put the efforts necessary to make it happen, but it took the "keep it simple and lean" mantra to ensure its success. Thanks for that Mr. Todd Mason.

Last edited by oldrcr; 06-24-2010 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 06-24-2010, 02:43 PM   #50
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A consensus has to be reached for Amateur, but I think that it doesn't have to be rocket science. Hopefully close to what is already being used in most types of cars will work, so not too much purchasing of new equipment will be necessary.

Pro is pretty easy - any wind, any esc. No need to refine too many of the other rules as they fit each car class pretty well figured out already. Power plant is really going to be a driver decided issue. If you can beat a racer running a 4.5 motor with your 13.5 w/dynamic timing esc, do it. Since its all about getting the right set-up, for each track, driver, or condition, it will require the skill to make a proper decision by each individual as to what to run to win with. Thats what being in this driver class is all about.

Amateur - Well... starting points - TC 17.5 or 21.5, 1/12 17.5 or 13.5, WGT 13.5, maybe 10.5 ,since no esc timing might actually be too slow for WGT, VTA is already 25.5, scale spec, probably the same as VTA. The effort will be to get the speed at a reasonable level and as close together as possible. There will als=ways be those that take the time to be sure their drivetrain has the least amount of friction, or other ways to get that small percentage of difference, but that will never go away. We can only get so close. We can never get anywhere if we don't just put the basics in place. Again, lets just do it, and get to racing.

There will no doubt be a need for a little refinement for Amateur, we can just start with whats been happening with the esc regulation ideas and gearing pieces already starting to be put in place, the stock firmware settable and purely stock (no dynamic) esc's that already exsist. I am not ignoring the points brought up about the way around the software issues brought up earlier. I suppose even 1s vs 2s batteries could help in the equation. I am sure there are enough of us with ideas and experience to put together a logical starting point with any other options we come up with being employed. We should just set a date for the new rules to be employed. The pressure of that will cause us to put pencil to paper and make something happen. Maybe just after the nats.

I have thoughts about how this will effect club racing, and the more I think about it, it will be a good thing there as well. I have some answers to how to run race programs on any given race day depending on turnouts for any class of car as well as driver level. I can elaborate if anyone is interested.

Simplicity will be the key. Something our club president stresses often and has been very successful employing. In a bit over a year we started a whole new club, from the ashes of a the loss of most others around here. We lay out an indoor carpet track in under a half an hour and we are racing. With many racers too, new ones coming on board regularly, and many former ones coming back as well. There were many that put the efforts necessary to make it happen, but it took the "keep it simple and lean" mantra to ensure its success. Thanks for that Mr. Todd Mason.
...lets start putting pencil to paper

Also let us not forget that the title of PRESIDENT doesn't mean the power to 'overrule' the majority rules. A president (in this case) has to represent what the majority wants EVEN IF its not what he wants....LETS GET TO RACING
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Old 06-24-2010, 03:09 PM   #51
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Open motor rules in amateur. If a person is only 2 laps off the fastest pro's pace then bump him to pro.

Less rules = less tech inspection = less cheating = more even playing field. I don't think club races have the time or equipment to tech inspect brushless motors. For all we know a 17.5 could be a 4.5 inside (just open the can, remove the windings.)

Power is combo of motor, battery, esc + tires, suspension tuning, driving. Keep it all open so racers do not have to buy additional equipment. Let their lap times dictate whether amateur or pro.

If worried about speeds, make the track layout technical to focus on handling and close racing.

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Old 06-24-2010, 08:19 PM   #52
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My perspective on the issue, for the local region, is that VTA / RCGT 21.5 classes should have timing banned EDIT: enforced with the honor system or blinking lights. These classes are for the slower and/or cheaper crowd, are more about building your skills and having fun racing whoever happens to be a similar speed. Timing ramp, even going to Tekin 203 from 200, makes a huge, huge difference in speed. Sure it's fun, but it's actually more than a lot of newbs, myself included, can handle on a tight carpet track.

For stock touring, 12th, and WGT, speedos should be open, and if someone gets into or wins an A-Main without timing, well they just deserve that much more respect. If they get beat in the B-Main by a shitty driver with timing, oh well. If a pro driver doesn't win the A-Main because his Speedo sponsor doesn't make something competetive, and he doesn't like the feel of a Tekin, oh well.

Where I'm coming from with this is:

1) RC race days already run too long for people with wives / girlfriends / families, especially when they're on a week night. There simply isn't enough time and there aren't enough entrants to support any increase in classes. If anything, we should be looking at reducing the number of classes and increasing entrants in each one.

2) I'm a n00b. I can't drive. But I already feel like 21.5 is getting a little boring with the bigger outdoor tracks, and with sticky carpet and traction compound. But I still enjoy racing, and I know it's not my motor / esc package keeping me 3 laps down. I wanted to try something faster, so I got a Stock Touring car.

3) 17.5 without timing, on subpar tires, on a large outdoor track, is still slow enough that it's not too hard to keep the car off the boards. Sure, I wipe out a couple times per race, but that's not because the car's too fast, it's because I'm trying to push the edges of the track and don't have the skill to do it consistently. Once my skills are better, I'm going to want to be running 17.5 with timing, and I'd hate for it to not be there.

4) I have yet to see a local club race where anyone runs mod, except maybe one Saturday H30 race. But almost every week before each event, people are asking "who wants to run mod?" and the only reason it doesn't happen is because there's not enough time in the race night, or the people people that would run it don't have time to get a car together. We need a really fast stock touring so people don't get bored, and because it's awesome to watch the cars rip on the carpet. If you want to add an extra regular class, don't add a slower stock that will overlap with 21.5. Add mod.

5) I'm a total geek and I love the concept of programmable / tunable ESCs and motors.

I don't really know much of ROAR history, but it seems pretty obvious to me that however ROAR intended it, Stock Touring is not an entry level class anymore, or at least it's not a class where a newb can come in and be competetive with less than years of experience. And frankly, I don't think it should be.

-Mike
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Old 06-24-2010, 08:32 PM   #53
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My perspective on the issue, for the local region, is that VTA / RCGT 21.5 classes should have timing banned EDIT: enforced with the honor system or blinking lights. These classes are for the slower and/or cheaper crowd, are more about building your skills and having fun racing whoever happens to be a similar speed. Timing ramp, even going to Tekin 203 from 200, makes a huge, huge difference in speed. Sure it's fun, but it's actually more than a lot of newbs, myself included, can handle on a tight carpet track.

For stock touring, 12th, and WGT, speedos should be open, and if someone gets into or wins an A-Main without timing, well they just deserve that much more respect. If they get beat in the B-Main by a shitty driver with timing, oh well. If a pro driver doesn't win the A-Main because his Speedo sponsor doesn't make something competetive, and he doesn't like the feel of a Tekin, oh well.

Where I'm coming from with this is:

1) RC race days already run too long for people with wives / girlfriends / families, especially when they're on a week night. There simply isn't enough time and there aren't enough entrants to support any increase in classes. If anything, we should be looking at reducing the number of classes and increasing entrants in each one.

2) I'm a n00b. I can't drive. But I already feel like 21.5 is getting a little boring with the bigger outdoor tracks, and with sticky carpet and traction compound. But I still enjoy racing, and I know it's not my motor / esc package keeping me 3 laps down. I wanted to try something faster, so I got a Stock Touring car.

3) 17.5 without timing, on subpar tires, on a large outdoor track, is still slow enough that it's not too hard to keep the car off the boards. Sure, I wipe out a couple times per race, but that's not because the car's too fast, it's because I'm trying to push the edges of the track and don't have the skill to do it consistently. Once my skills are better, I'm going to want to be running 17.5 with timing, and I'd hate for it to not be there.

4) I have yet to see a local club race where anyone runs mod, except maybe one Saturday H30 race. But almost every week before each event, people are asking "who wants to run mod?" and the only reason it doesn't happen is because there's not enough time in the race night, or the people people that would run it don't have time to get a car together. We need a really fast stock touring so people don't get bored, and because it's awesome to watch the cars rip on the carpet. If you want to add an extra regular class, don't add a slower stock that will overlap with 21.5. Add mod.

5) I'm a total geek and I love the concept of programmable / tunable ESCs and motors.

I don't really know much of ROAR history, but it seems pretty obvious to me that however ROAR intended it, Stock Touring is not an entry level class anymore, or at least it's not a class where a newb can come in and be competetive with less than years of experience. And frankly, I don't think it should be.

-Mike
Very...very nice Mike. I can respect that
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Old 06-24-2010, 08:51 PM   #54
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me too. thank you for taking the time to express your opinion.
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:50 PM   #55
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Default What is the trend in your area???

To get back to the original question;

So, in my part of the country seems to be a movement away from the ramping ESC's, just wondering how it is going in your part of the country/world
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Old 06-25-2010, 03:02 AM   #56
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I don't know of any clubs in my area where touring cars are not allowed to use the latest generation of ESC's.

Fast guys tend to use 13.5, the slower guys use 17.5.

If we want to race a cheaper class, we get a Tamiya M03/4/5
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Old 06-25-2010, 03:33 AM   #57
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I don't know of any clubs in my area where touring cars are not allowed to use the latest generation of ESC's.

Fast guys tend to use 13.5, the slower guys use 17.5.

If we want to race a cheaper class, we get a Tamiya M03/4/5
Exactly the same thing has happened at our local club, we're just starting out with a Mini/Mardave class for those that don't want to run TC/WGt/12th or are just beginning in the sport.

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To make it easy for everyone to understand why a spec ESC is a bad idea, here is a little story:

There is a guy named Racer X who is sponsored by Company XE. A RACE SEQUENCE is engaged when Racer X is on the driver stand and told to hold full brake. The Team Manager turns on the ESC switch, waits 2 secs. Turns off and on immediately. The ESC flashes a red and green LED light to notify that RACE SEQUENCE is engaged. He is helping out Racer X and puts the car on track for a few warm up laps before gridding.

Racer X has now 10 degrees of extra timing. Enough to be the fastest, yet not too obvious to the untrained eye. Racer X thinks he has a hot motor or battery.

Racer X wins the race by 1/2 a lap. He turns the car off and sends the car to tech. RACE SEQUENCE in now disengaged. The ESC under all field testing conditions shows a normal non-timing, non boast perfect and happy ESC. The tech inspector turns on the ESC and the red LED light blinks 5 times and pauses, etc. The tech inspector is satisfied with his observations and puts a PASS sticker on the car.

Racer X never knew that he engaged a hidden race sequence. He tries it again under a suspicion and it does not work. Unknown to him, the start up sequence has electronically changed. Only the ESC Team Manager knows the sequence codes.

...need more stories?

An American educated software Engineer sitting in a Shanghai office could have programmed the above story in 40 minutes or less.
Couldn't agree more, as a programmer of over 10 years, this would be an absolute doddle.. Software can do pretty much ANYTHING you want it to.
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Old 06-25-2010, 04:15 AM   #58
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Exactly the same thing has happened at our local club, we're just starting out with a Mini/Mardave class for those that don't want to run TC/WGt/12th or are just beginning in the sport.



Couldn't agree more, as a programmer of over 10 years, this would be an absolute doddle.. Software can do pretty much ANYTHING you want it to.
It seems to be a good way forward, as the cars are more basic, allowing more focus on car control, over endless different car settings on a touring car.

I've heard of team drivers giving out false details of car set ups to throw others off the scent, so something like this is very possible if one wanted to do it, it's nothing new unfortunately.

You can't make something cheat proof, unless you have the technology and understanding on how to check it.
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Old 06-25-2010, 09:22 AM   #59
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Default Timing / No Timing

There are a lot of good points made in the thread.

When I started a track this year I went in trying to make the rules as fair as possible. I know Jaybee suggested 21.5 stock to slow things down for the newer racer. I actually had originally setup stock with 21.5. The problem was nobody was interested and I mean nobody. I changed it back to 17.5 stock w/no timing and people were interested in running the class again.

The real issue that I am now hearing people post about is its almost impossible to tech. Most tracks are not setup with the needed resources to tech all the different speed controls. I can think of 4 or 5 adapters off hand you would need and I know there is more. You also have frequency ramping, which from what I'm hearing is very fast. That's doesn't really fall into dynamic timing so you would have to ban that or check that its not being done. From a RD point of view that is easily a full time job just trying to tech. I know companies have good attentions by having it easy to tech by having two blinking lights etc. But firmware/hardware is hackable and its not that hard. It will happen, its racing after all. If you don't believe me look at the Xbox, Sony Playstation, etc. Supposedly un-hackable platforms that companies spent 100's of millions of dollars developing. There is more then a fair share of really sharp people in the hobby that could do this.

Ways to try and keep it Fair:

1)The only true way to keep Stock fair is to spec out a speed control like the Novak havok or other speed control that isn't software controllable.
OR
2)You could require that a slower motor is run and still allow any speed control run.

Me personally I've run both. I enjoy the tuning part of the timing equation. At my track its mainly become an issue because there hasn't been enough turn out to run the classes separately. I hope this will change as the season goes along and then I won't even have to worry about this being a dilemma at least for this year.

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Old 06-25-2010, 11:00 AM   #60
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Does anybody know why the stock brushless motors have adjustable timing to begin with? For years stock motors were locked.

As I see it a locked timing 17.5 at 0 degrees with a roar stock speedo should be slow enough anyone who can drive good won't want to run that class and if anyone mods the software too much it should be noticable on the track then they can be teched and dqed.
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