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Old 06-23-2010, 08:37 PM   #31
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[/INDENT]This movement by ROAR and some of the ESC manufacturers to take out timing and boost and produce a "spec" ESC already failed before it started. This is the stupidest idea that anybody who wrote their first line of computer code will be able to comprehend. Blinking lights, beeps and start-up whistles proposed are simple appeasements.

Let's fast forward 1 year from now... Brand B Stock Spec ESC is the hot seller because it is winning all the time by a few fast racers. Everyone thinks it is the Brand B's speed controller instead of the sponsored racer's skills. Brand A not to be undone will make a slight running change to their code and up the internal timing and give it only to their sponsored racers. It will have internal time delayed code that bypasses all known checks for timing, frequency, etc. It is now faster and wins all the time. Brand A is now the hot seller.[INDENT]Spec racing has to be done mechanically, not electronically.
When ROAR does random ESC checks at races and off store shelfs the ESC's will be throughly tested. IF one is found to be providing ANY timing at all that Manufactures motors, esc, etc.. will be banned from ROAR events for a minimum of 1 year presently. I for one believe this is incentive enough for any Mfg.

Another reason ROAR took this path was so the RACERS did not have to repurchase ESC's with few exceptions.

I would expect the rules for next year to use 21.5T motors for SPEC and Stock class.

The cars are simply too FAST... imho
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:47 PM   #32
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When ROAR does random ESC checks at races and off store shelfs the ESC's will be throughly tested. IF one is found to be providing ANY timing at all that Manufactures motors, esc, etc.. will be banned from ROAR events for a minimum of 1 year presently. I for one believe this is incentive enough for any Mfg.

Another reason ROAR took this path was so the RACERS did not have to repurchase ESC's with few exceptions.

I would expect the rules for next year to use 21.5T motors for SPEC and Stock class.

The cars are simply too FAST... imho
You obviously don't understand the power of programmable electronic circuitry.

Okay. It is taking months of engineering by dozens of hardworking companies around the world to figure out how to have RPM and load based dynamic timing in the ESC. This is the easy part.

Now, what skill level, equipment, and field testing laboratory will an oscilloscope do a R/C racer doing double duty as a tech inspector have to check code if it conforms or not. If testing software code was that easy, every ESC manufacture would reverse engineer the Black Diamond or Tekin ESC. The Apple Ipod code would be on the internet as a download.

Currently, finding 2 electronic scales at a R/C race that shows the same weight is impossible.

Every ESC manufacture today have the capability to show blinking lights and mask electronically under all field based testing conditions that there is no timing advance.

Add a large cash booty to a "spec" no timing race and watch all the ESC manufactures do a double take.

Everyone purchasing a slower brushless motor is cheaper than cost to electric R/C racing via this spec ESC adventure.

Black Diamond shocked the R/C industry with dynamic timing. Wait till you see their spec ESC. How many and what color blinking LED lights do you want to make you feel better?
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Old 06-24-2010, 12:15 AM   #33
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You obviously don't understand the power of programmable electronic circuitry.

Okay. It is taking months of engineering by dozens of hardworking companies around the world to figure out how to have RPM and load based dynamic timing in the ESC. This is the easy part.

Now, what skill level, equipment, and field testing laboratory will an oscilloscope do a R/C racer doing double duty as a tech inspector have to check code if it conforms or not. If testing software code was that easy, every ESC manufacture would reverse engineer the Black Diamond or Tekin ESC. The Apple Ipod code would be on the internet as a download.

Currently, finding 2 electronic scales at a R/C race that shows the same weight is impossible.

Every ESC manufacture today have the capability to show blinking lights and mask electronically under all field based testing conditions that there is no timing advance.

Add a large cash booty to a "spec" no timing race and watch all the ESC manufactures do a double take.

Everyone purchasing a slower brushless motor is cheaper than cost to electric R/C racing via this spec ESC adventure.

Black Diamond shocked the R/C industry with dynamic timing. Wait till you see their spec ESC. How many and what color blinking LED lights do you want to make you feel better?
....exactly, beware of what you ask for
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Old 06-24-2010, 01:47 AM   #34
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To make it easy for everyone to understand why a spec ESC is a bad idea, here is a little story:

There is a guy named Racer X who is sponsored by Company XE. A RACE SEQUENCE is engaged when Racer X is on the driver stand and told to hold full brake. The Team Manager turns on the ESC switch, waits 2 secs. Turns off and on immediately. The ESC flashes a red and green LED light to notify that RACE SEQUENCE is engaged. He is helping out Racer X and puts the car on track for a few warm up laps before gridding.

Racer X has now 10 degrees of extra timing. Enough to be the fastest, yet not too obvious to the untrained eye. Racer X thinks he has a hot motor or battery.

Racer X wins the race by 1/2 a lap. He turns the car off and sends the car to tech. RACE SEQUENCE in now disengaged. The ESC under all field testing conditions shows a normal non-timing, non boast perfect and happy ESC. The tech inspector turns on the ESC and the red LED light blinks 5 times and pauses, etc. The tech inspector is satisfied with his observations and puts a PASS sticker on the car.

Racer X never knew that he engaged a hidden race sequence. He tries it again under a suspicion and it does not work. Unknown to him, the start up sequence has electronically changed. Only the ESC Team Manager knows the sequence codes.

...need more stories?

An American educated software Engineer sitting in a Shanghai office could have programmed the above story in 40 minutes or less.
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Old 06-24-2010, 04:15 AM   #35
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[email protected] you couldnt be any more right keeping the speedys open to timing has made a more even playing field, and has stoped all cheating with escs. And i think no two roar approved stock escs will perform the same any how open escs have taken half the war from motors and lipos away you can be pretty competitive with any combo now, just my 2cents
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Old 06-24-2010, 05:56 AM   #36
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No hobby involving motorsport is cheap if you want to be competitive.

If it wasnt the latest ESC, it would be the latest motor, lipo, car part etc etc....

The guys with time for the hobby, skill, money and understanding car setup will always fair well. Key elements to most hobbies.

The only thing that has changed through the years is the technology, because racing is still racing.

The switchover from brushed to brushless, the changeover from nimh to lipo are all big changes some of us adapt to, or defeat to in various levels.

Ive raced 15 years and don't expect to see myself winning the A every time I race, but when I do, it's an achievement

Sometimes, you need a reality check - it's a hobby, not a commitment, unless you want to make it one
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Old 06-24-2010, 07:08 AM   #37
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[email protected] you couldnt be any more right keeping the speedys open to timing has made a more even playing field, and has stoped all cheating with escs. And i think no two roar approved stock escs will perform the same any how open escs have taken half the war from motors and lipos away you can be pretty competitive with any combo now, just my 2cents
Beautifully said with minimum amount of words.
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Old 06-24-2010, 09:16 AM   #38
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To make it easy for everyone to understand why a spec ESC is a bad idea, here is a little story:

There is a guy named Racer X who is sponsored by Company XE. A RACE SEQUENCE is engaged when Racer X is on the driver stand and told to hold full brake. The Team Manager turns on the ESC switch, waits 2 secs. Turns off and on immediately. The ESC flashes a red and green LED light to notify that RACE SEQUENCE is engaged. He is helping out Racer X and puts the car on track for a few warm up laps before gridding.

Racer X has now 10 degrees of extra timing. Enough to be the fastest, yet not too obvious to the untrained eye. Racer X thinks he has a hot motor or battery.

Racer X wins the race by 1/2 a lap. He turns the car off and sends the car to tech. RACE SEQUENCE in now disengaged. The ESC under all field testing conditions shows a normal non-timing, non boast perfect and happy ESC. The tech inspector turns on the ESC and the red LED light blinks 5 times and pauses, etc. The tech inspector is satisfied with his observations and puts a PASS sticker on the car.

Racer X never knew that he engaged a hidden race sequence. He tries it again under a suspicion and it does not work. Unknown to him, the start up sequence has electronically changed. Only the ESC Team Manager knows the sequence codes.

...need more stories?

An American educated software Engineer sitting in a Shanghai office could have programmed the above story in 40 minutes or less.
This is so true.
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Old 06-24-2010, 09:26 AM   #39
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and folks wonder why both 'nitro' and 'can' racing are still so popular. so much BS in here.

honestly who cares if u can slip the rules and have the baddest speedo around, b/c soon enuff u wont have any1 to race.

c'mon out to offroad folks! its all good over here! a stock novak or losi exceleron kicks every1s butt every wk. ever seen boost off a jump (especially with a 2wd), eh not good. problem solved. not to mention most every1 runs mod anyway! nimh? lipo? life? no problem!!!

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Old 06-24-2010, 09:48 AM   #40
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Are we REALLY debating this again?

I have participated in some of the debates in the past, but the rules have been set so now lets move on.

No one who wins an RC race is ever going to receive anything of real value for it. No Nobel prizes, no Medal of Honor, no Academy Award, no peace treaty will be signed, and in 99% of all races you won't even get any money for winning. At BEST someone might go as far as taking your picture next to your trophy and posting in on a website somewhere. If your really lucky you'll get your pic taken with some chic who thinks you're a nerd for playing with toy cars.

So if cheating is that important to you, you a loser anyway!

And if you don't like the speed of TC, there are other classes and segments of this hobby you might find more suitable.

Now let's get back to having fun shall we.
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:19 AM   #41
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ok so you had your debates, let us have ours, thanks, the rules are still being debated in places, so no it not over
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:53 AM   #42
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Sky,

I think your original post was a very valid discussion point, as I responded to it on the previous page. I just think that debating on whether people will spend the time cracking the code on spec ESC's to win a bowling trophy or have bragging rights, is a little far fetched and adds negativity to a segment of the hobby that needs some life. But if you find that interesting, it's your thread...debate away.

I'd hoped this thread would have discussed what type of racing will be popular at local venues...and possibly how it affects attendance and racer satisfaction.

I'll leave your thread alone. Thanks.
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Old 06-24-2010, 11:50 AM   #43
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Sky,

I think your original post was a very valid dicussion point, as I responded to it on the previous page. I just think that debating on wether people will spend the time cracking the code on spec ESC's to win a bowling trophy or have bragging rights, is a little far fetched and adds negativity to a segment of the hobby that needs some life. But if you find that interesting, it's your thread...debate away.

I'd hoped this thread would have discussed what type of racing will be popular at local venues...and possibly how it affects attendance and racer satisfaction.

I'll leave your thread alone. Thanks.
Pit-
For these 2 reasons alone is why there is a debate in our local area.
'Cracking' the code on SPEC ESC's WILL HAPPEN....we can't turn a blind eye to it with the hopes of folks NOT doing it for the sake of a bowling trophy. Racers want the upper hand or edge right now as we speak to win a ordinary club race.

PARITY will not be gained here. As a matter of fact, it will turn into an even more so battle of the HAVES and HAVE NOTS. Everyone pretty much run high-powered lipos, expensive chassis's, good tyres, etc. The esc is just another one of those components. We already own some of the best RC equipment out there. What drivers are missing is patience, set up knowledge and skill. It takes time to be fast for most of us.

I'm still scratching my head though, because between this thread and a couple of my local threads, I'm still not finding the substance behind this movement. Especially since a simple solution would be to just motor down and leave the esc's alone.
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Old 06-24-2010, 12:01 PM   #44
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Pit-
For these 2 reasons alone is why there is a debate in our local area.
'Cracking' the code on SPEC ESC's WILL HAPPEN....we can't turn a blind eye to it with the hopes of folks NOT doing it for the sake of a bowling trophy. Racers want the upper hand or edge right now as we speak to win a ordinary club race.

PARITY will not be gained here. As a matter of fact, it will turn into an even more so battle of the HAVES and HAVE NOTS. Everyone pretty much run high-powered lipos, expensive chassis's, good tyres, etc. The esc is just another one of those components. We already own some of the best RC equipment out there. What drivers are missing is patience, set up knowledge and skill. It takes time to be fast for most of us.

I'm still scratching my head though, because between this thread and a couple of my local threads, I'm still not finding the substance behind this movement. Especially since a simple solution would be to just motor down and leave the esc's alone.
I feel sorry for the dude who spends the time to crack the code on an ESC to basically run and open speedo in a spec class. That person is a complete waste of time.

I agree with your last statement.

OK I'll STFU now
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Old 06-24-2010, 12:12 PM   #45
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Maybe a good way for things to go will be that there will be two driver classes of racing in each form of car. So, TC, 1/12, WGT, etc. would each get two driver divisions, Amateur or Pro.

Amateur - A speed regulation rule that gives a person a chance at learning some important stepping stones to the next level. Driving and set-up skills would be the focus. Some form of controlled power plant for speed regulation, either with motor/esc, battery, or maybe even gearing too will be put in place. I am not sure what is the best way to go with a control mechanism, but, I think that with the input by many, and points that are being brought up, here in this thread, a good solution will be found. It'll never be absolutely perfect, as there will always be those looking to find a loop-hole, but, something needs to be put in place. It can always be adjusted over time, I guess yearly, for something that got overlooked. I know that there will always be reasons for those to try "cheat" to be faster in some way. The pressure is there for a manufacturer to look like the best choice, because of success needed to stay in business, etc., I understand. Unfortunately, as in racing, not everyone can win. Maybe if they see that by just producing good quality, well thought out designs and having good service and support at a reasonable price, will equal good sales and allow them stay in business. Sanctions can still be put in place to help keep an honest mind-set prevalent, but, even with any of this in place, there will always be those that will still look for loop-holes to gain an advantage. This is always going to be true, just a fact. Basically, everyone has their own honesty mirror to look into as how to answer that. Racers and manufacturers alike. Oh, and I suppose, no sponsored racers in this driver class either.

Pro - just open the motor/esc rules. - Same basic car rules, width, weight, battery voltage, wing size, etc. for any given car type, TC, 1/12, WGT, etc. This allows for new technology to develop at a higher level. I never would want that to stop, life would get very boring if it did. After that, same basic principals apply as Amateur, driving and set-up skill, just with the faster speeds. An new challenge. What you learned to get to a competitive level in Amateur, will help you deal with the extra speed Pro level will let you have.

Very simple, then we can just go racing. The abilities of drivers will qualify them where they belong in the "Pro" level, and the "Amateur" will be a training ground for Pro. With the speed in check at the Amateur level, driving and set-up will be a premium, and when you get that honed in, the move up to "Pro" will be a lot smoother. Not sure if a system needs to be put in place to force an amateur to move up when a certain number of races have been won, so we don't get a dominator running amateur all the time, but, even if someone did do that, it should just give those behind more incentive to catch that person. You would hope that a driver would eventually get bored and just want to move up, so, in a way, it may just prove to be self-regulating actually. I suppose you might not want to let a Pro drop back down, but, on the other hand, why not? A good driver/set-up person will always show everyone else that it is possible to go faster, and by showing what is possible, it will show/force them to follow and improve as well. If any other driver can do it, so can I, should be the prevalent mind set. No one would ever have a chance at winning anything if they did not think this way. Everyone should always go into a race wanting to win, to beat the person ahead of them. Isn't that the definition of what we are doing?

Simpler is always better, easier, more fun, with less stress having to think about all the rules and regulations and more emphasis on the basics... good driving and prepping. .
Just thinking positively.
Enough talk, lets do it, and go racing.
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