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Old 06-23-2010, 11:14 AM   #16
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Since I'm in the market for a new ESC real soon, which would I be most satisfied with? Tekin, ORCA, SpeedPassion?
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Old 06-23-2010, 12:19 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
Since I'm in the market for a new ESC real soon, which would I be most satisfied with? Tekin, ORCA, SpeedPassion?
If you are going to race mod or off-road I would get he KO BMC. I have not come across anything that is as smooth as this controller.

For stock, racing well I wouldn't get anything that is not upgradable. First choice for me is the Mamba max pro, its great and I am running it in my TC and in a 1/8 scale buggy. It is tough and has plenty of adjustability. Second choice is Tekin rs. Because sometimes size does matter. But really this is probably the most well rounded controller out. Nice thing too about Castle and Tekin is that they are made in the states. Both are great quality and support for both is great.
I have not used any of the hobbywing or SP products. From the guys that run these they are great. Hobbywing is obviously the price leader. And I don't know if there is any technical difference between the HW or SP hardware. From the spec it appears they are identical. So it really is a toss up.
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Old 06-23-2010, 01:22 PM   #18
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This side of the pond there is a lot of debate about these speedos, but nothing happening. Like others on here, I don't know why we are having this debate.

If we go back to speedos with no timing advance, then the advantage racers want has to come from the motor or the battery. When stock BR motors went ballistic on endbell timing, we pegged it at 24 deg. That, they told us, would fix the problem - did it hell!! Immediately we went to finding cells with the highest voltage, and all sorts of motor tweeks. As the cell capacity went up, we could wring more and more out of the motors, so they eventually started breaking. Speedos with no timing advance will just return us to a battery and motor war, motors which break (because the timing is added inefficiently, whereas the ramping speedos do it more efficiently) which is more expensive than what we have now!!

I really don't understand what the problem is with these speedos. I at last have the ability to run as fast as everyone else without the black art of comm skimming, brush voodoo and spring fiddling. I set my speedo and run my car, and adjust gear ratios accordingly - how could this be any simpler? I give my settings to anyone who asks, and they can then run as fast as me.

Why do I want to go to a situation where my speed will be dependent on the latest motor, and me being able to afford the very highest capacity cells (to keep the voltage up for longer) and ensuring I have fresh ones every few months. I am sure there will be people saying that's not necessary, but once the motor manufacturers work out that we are all on the same speedo they will build new motors, and the battery guys will be upping the capacity to give the max possible.

When every driver was clamouring for BL a few years back, I said it was the wrong move and it was poorly thought through. I said there would be laptops on every pit table and was told I was an idiot. I have little doubt that I will be told that ramping speedos are killing things and I am just scaremongering. I bet that if the 'standard' speedos catch on, people will be back on here complaining that they cannot afford the latest motors and cells, and that the team drivers are getting the best ones!

The problem here is that the cars are too fast - so slow them down. The problem is not the speedos, it is that the motors you hook them up to are too powerful, and too difficult to control for less-able drivers. So, why not put stock back to 21.5? Or, why not put stock back to 1S? Ramping speedos are the cheapest, easiest and most efficient way of getting performance, and should stay IMHO.
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Old 06-23-2010, 01:43 PM   #19
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It's been awhile since we had a "stock is too fast" thread.

Sooo to keep on topic I'll answer the OP's post.

At our track we are going to have a drivers meeting next month to discuss what classes we want to run in the fall. We're also discussing this same issue for our regional series. There is a decent amount of us that would run an open speedo class. Although I also think our focus will be what will bring in the most racers. With that said I think the majority of people are open to running a "spec" speedo class.
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Old 06-23-2010, 02:44 PM   #20
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All the new ESC's are coming out with a no timing mode to comply with ROAR rules, so whatever ESC you buy should be able to switch between both pretty easily. There's really no need for a special spec ESC, any modern ESC with firmware updates is going to be fine.

The classes for IIC seem pretty smart to me. Obviously motor choice for SS might need to be revisited depending on your track size, but for most indoor tracks, at least, this seems like a pretty reasonable setup:

17.5 no timing ESC = stock (and amateur)
17.5 w/timing ESC = super stock
mod

Moving from stock to super stock is as simple as upgrading firmware. Free.
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Old 06-23-2010, 04:16 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
My question is- what was the point of the manufacturers creating these speed-possessed pieces of R/C evolution? Isn't this what the RACERS wanted? What is the purpose of the "no ramping esc's/damn this tech to hell" movement? To create a sense of false parity between racers? Hmmm....interesting

I see it as just another learning curve but I'm afraid I may be living in my own little unique bubble.... (but I'm cool with that)

TBH, I don't disagree... the technology is out there.. and no doubt soon enough it will be sneaking into custom ROAR style profiles... just you won't be able to select it.

The only way to truely remove timing advance from the equation is to go Sensorless, but that won't happen due to the issues with high turn motors... hey ho... is what it is.

And to get the topic back on thread... ramping speedos still full bore over here in the UK, even the modified boys are taking advantage. A 3.5t with timing advance is a sight to behold...
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Old 06-23-2010, 05:00 PM   #22
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This side of the pond there is a lot of debate about these speedos, but nothing happening. Like others on here, I don't know why we are having this debate.

If we go back to speedos with no timing advance, then the advantage racers want has to come from the motor or the battery. When stock BR motors went ballistic on endbell timing, we pegged it at 24 deg. That, they told us, would fix the problem - did it hell!! Immediately we went to finding cells with the highest voltage, and all sorts of motor tweeks. As the cell capacity went up, we could wring more and more out of the motors, so they eventually started breaking. Speedos with no timing advance will just return us to a battery and motor war, motors which break (because the timing is added inefficiently, whereas the ramping speedos do it more efficiently) which is more expensive than what we have now!!

I really don't understand what the problem is with these speedos. I at last have the ability to run as fast as everyone else without the black art of comm skimming, brush voodoo and spring fiddling. I set my speedo and run my car, and adjust gear ratios accordingly - how could this be any simpler? I give my settings to anyone who asks, and they can then run as fast as me.

Why do I want to go to a situation where my speed will be dependent on the latest motor, and me being able to afford the very highest capacity cells (to keep the voltage up for longer) and ensuring I have fresh ones every few months. I am sure there will be people saying that's not necessary, but once the motor manufacturers work out that we are all on the same speedo they will build new motors, and the battery guys will be upping the capacity to give the max possible.

When every driver was clamouring for BL a few years back, I said it was the wrong move and it was poorly thought through. I said there would be laptops on every pit table and was told I was an idiot. I have little doubt that I will be told that ramping speedos are killing things and I am just scaremongering. I bet that if the 'standard' speedos catch on, people will be back on here complaining that they cannot afford the latest motors and cells, and that the team drivers are getting the best ones!

The problem here is that the cars are too fast - so slow them down. The problem is not the speedos, it is that the motors you hook them up to are too powerful, and too difficult to control for less-able drivers. So, why not put stock back to 21.5? Or, why not put stock back to 1S? Ramping speedos are the cheapest, easiest and most efficient way of getting performance, and should stay IMHO.
I agree with this post whole-heartedly!!! And let's not forget a couple of other issues like- without RAMPING tech, we go back to messing with the esc parameter frequencies (folks complained about that); then the issue of different rotor sizes (folks complained about that); then the issue of not all BL motors timing are the same....the LRP X12 has their way of timing their motors (min.'s & max.'s). And so does SpeedPassion, Novak, Tekin and whoever the hell else you wanna throw in the mix.

So all of you who are snatch-scratchin' over these ramping esc's.....I HAVE YET to hear the reason for handicapping ourselves, let alone address all the past issues that has been mentioned.
The bottom line is this- Do you think your car is too fast? If so, who's fault is that? The rest of us who can handle a 17.5 motor with ramping tech? Pull the 17.5 OUT OF YOUR CAR and motor down. You can still run with the 17.5 guys if you want, but guess what....you're still getting lapped and pulling the hell over for guys who are just better drivers than you. Just because your buddy can handle it doesn't mean you can. Yeah, I can go out there and run MOD with Kody, rITCHIE, and Brett. But guess what? I'm pulling my ass over to let them by and then tuck in behind them and try and LEARN their line. But how dare I whine and moan and gripe about how fast MY car is, and try and force them to motor down or handicap their equipment. I chose to run the class for pete's sake!!

It's all about learning curve. I spent almost 3years chasing rITCHIE around local tracks until I could hang with him. And in that time prolly only won a couple of races. Once I learned set-up and got tremendous stick time, only then was I ever in the top 3-5 at SIR on a given day.

Guys want speed and skills that come outta a bottle. Listen closely- IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. If it could, we all would be slurping it up. How often do we get to go to the track and hone our skills? Not very many days here in the PNW. Its a shame that SIR isn't around anymore, because alot of us that's been around there- LIVED THERE!!

I apologize if this angers folks but in all seriousness....I'm not here to smile in your face and pat you on the back and say everything's gonna be okay. I wanna kick ya in your whiny little asses....guys we've got bigger fish to fry with OUR RACING than RAMPING ESC's....4real

See everybody Saturday at Fasttracks....holla if you see me
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Old 06-23-2010, 05:06 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
I agree with this post whole-heartedly!!! And let's not forget a couple of other issues like- without RAMPING tech, we go back to messing with the esc parameter frequencies (folks complained about that); then the issue of different rotor sizes (folks complained about that); then the issue of not all BL motors timing are the same....the LRP X12 has their way of timing their motors (min.'s & max.'s). And so does SpeedPassion, Novak, Tekin and whoever the hell else you wanna throw in the mix.

So all of you who are snatch-scratchin' over these ramping esc's.....I HAVE YET to hear the reason for handicapping ourselves, let alone address all the past issues that has been mentioned.
The bottom line is this- Do you think your car is too fast? If so, who's fault is that? The rest of us who can handle a 17.5 motor with ramping tech? Pull the 17.5 OUT OF YOUR CAR and motor down. You can still run with the 17.5 guys if you want, but guess what....you're still getting lapped and pulling the hell over for guys who are just better drivers than you. Just because your buddy can handle it doesn't mean you can. Yeah, I can go out there and run MOD with Kody, rITCHIE, and Brett. But guess what? I'm pulling my ass over to let them by and then tuck in behind them and try and LEARN their line. But how dare I whine and moan and gripe about how fast MY car is, and try and force them to motor down or handicap their equipment. I chose to run the class for pete's sake!!

It's all about learning curve. I spent almost 3years chasing rITCHIE around local tracks until I could hang with him. And in that time prolly only won a couple of races. Once I learned set-up and got tremendous stick time, only then was I ever in the top 3-5 at SIR on a given day.

Guys want speed and skills that come outta a bottle. Listen closely- IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. If it could, we all would be slurping it up. How often do we get to go to the track and hone our skills? Not very many days here in the PNW. Its a shame that SIR isn't around anymore, because alot of us that's been around there- LIVED THERE!!

I apologize if this angers folks but in all seriousness....I'm not here to smile in your face and pat you on the back and say everything's gonna be okay. I wanna kick ya in your whiny little asses....guys we've got bigger fish with OUR RACING than RAMPING ESC's....4real

See everybody Saturday at Fasttracks....holla if you see me
whatchu you whining about now JayBee? how you doin' man? when you coming down south to join us at TCS?
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Old 06-23-2010, 05:11 PM   #24
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whatchu you whining about now JayBee? how you doin' man? when you coming down south to join us at TCS?
Hey, what's happ'n my dude?! Been good man. TCS? Not happening....I'll stick with the whining I hear up here
You have a good chance of seeing me at ROAR Nats (NORCAL) if everything pans out for me
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Old 06-23-2010, 05:59 PM   #25
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Heres a question that needs to be asked.

So now theres a 17.5 class with NO ramping esc allowed, you must turn off the boost, you must turn off the turbo, you must turn off the supercharger or whatever you wish to call it,

does that mean That I can now just simply reintall the software that came with my esc before company X came out with the boost stuff. I have Speedpassion ESC's I can install a pretty darn good non supercharged software, is that going to be ok, I can still take take #9 on the program card and turn the esc timing from 21* down to 0*, but what about Item #4 my DRRS or punch setting, can I now leave it at max, or does that get turned down now too. also how do we know that just because the box says its at zero it actually is at zero, how do we know that a tekins, lrp, novak, sp zero is all the same zero, and what about the motor timing, my SP 17.5 is adjustable from 0 - 10 degrees, but what about brand X that when set at zero is actually 30 degrees.

From these questions, I can precieve, Brand X having the best zero timing ESC which means of course I'll be buying one of those, and then Brand G having the best zero timing motor which of course I'll be buying one of those also. so now as a way of NOT HAVING TO MAKE SOMEONE BUY A 21.5 THAT WANTS TO GO SLOWER, I'LL BE BUYING A ESC AND MOTOR IN ORDER TO COMPETE IN THE NON RAMPING 17.5 CLASS. and when I say 'I', I don't necessarily mean ME. but you get the point. If you want to just have a slower class then fine, but if your looking to make things EQUAL, good luck, only way to do that is by specing a esc/motor combo such as the SP Cirtix system that can be had for the cost of that 21.5 that you don't want to buy. yea, yea, shameless plug, but I expect other companys to jump on board. lowing the cost to all.
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Old 06-23-2010, 06:19 PM   #26
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So tired of the 'this is too fast threads'

locally the slow guys go and run oval and complain about motors still


does anyone remember why we created 19t in the first place? 27t was too slow people whined and created a new class 19t

whatever, just race and finish without excuses!
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Old 06-23-2010, 06:23 PM   #27
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19t just took away from stock and mod classes, at least locally, it was a bad idea in my opinion
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Old 06-23-2010, 07:10 PM   #28
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The Tekins are not ultra-high priced. Not sure where you got that from?
Some of the other brands (LRP for one), that had a lot to do with starting this ramping/dynamic timing craze, and are priced the same and even higher than the Tekin RS. Just because LRP didn't design an ESC that can be updated, one of several that decided to not look ahead and design an easily updatable ESC, seems like a lame reason to blame Tekin for. With the latest Tekin software, 208, it will allow you to run in a non-ramping/non-dynamic class and with a quick profile change, go back to ramped/dynamic if you so desire. So, it saves you having to buy multiple ESC's. The only reason the cheaper, ramping and updatable esc's can now be found, is because Tekin did the research and development for them, and now they just copied it. Reminds me of how Microsoft got to where they are, they copied Apple, who brought a windows based operating system to market years before. MS then came out with a not very well designed imitation, that could and still can be compromised by viruses, which ends up costing all of us more. The Apple OS, designed properly from the ground up, because of better vision of the future, doesn't need virus software. I use this example because it mimics this complaint. It was said that Apple computers cost more. As it turns out they are only slightly more, sometimes less too, than the equivalent PC with the same specs, and when you factor in the cost of what viruses have cost all of us... you get the picture. Yes there are ways to put together your own computer for a lot less, but for your average, go to the PC store and buy a computer, this fact actually holds true. Statistics have shown that most Apple's are still in use for more than twice the number of years. So far, that is what is happening with the Tekin. Many bought the Black Diamond, at $350., and it was bested with a free software update on an ESC that costs half as much, the Tekin RS. Advanced Electronics, maker of the Black Diamond, has still yet to fix this for those that bought one.

Now, is ramping okay? For those that want to take racing to the pinnacle, you bet, and anything else that comes along to take racing to the next level. Does there need to be some limited classes , yes. For those needing to focus on basic skills, adding another distraction to that goal is not so good. But once the other pieces are in place for you at that level, you will want to move up a notch. Thats what its all about. I have seen this happen in many forms of competition over the years. Nothing new, history repeats itself, again.

Sorry to rant, but, that is the reality, and is none of this is new, it happens a lot.
and no, I don't work for Tekin.
That right there is 100% badass. And no I dont work for oldrcr. :-)
(sorry guys I am still getting caught up on this thread)

@skypilot: god bless you for starting this confab.

On topic:
I actually think that for many club racers dynamic timing is just the "shot in the arm" that they needed to add some serious competitive excitement without the enormous jump in speed (power really) from stock to mod. I am relatively new to this but I guess that "tweener" class used to be 13.5.

I have heard a lot of arguments (even started a few) from a lot of angles, and I am still a *little* mystified as to why the expense issue comes up at all. Is anybody going around telling new guys that they can really get into this sport/hobby without spending more than 2k every year?

As far as the power itself, I find it is remarkably user-friendly. In "stock", you have most of the mildness of a 17.5 on the infield, and enough top end to get lap times that threaten to converge on a mod pace. I call that approachable.

I feel very strongly that we ought to try very hard to make this technology work out for everyone at the club/event level so that the designers can continue to afford to fidget and we can see what the next few iterations of refinements will bring. To say that I spend money to be a guinea pig would be an understatement. Somehow I am strangely comfortable with that assessment.

Thank you for your time.
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Old 06-23-2010, 07:37 PM   #29
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I have been working on computers at all levels for over 30 years. Back when there were punch cards.
Therefore, any RC racing class that has a spec ESC that down-limits available performance via technology is ripe for cheating.

For example:
  • From 1-10, Over charging a Lipo is level 5 capability-cheating.
  • Unsoldering a brushless motor and removing a few winds is level 7.
  • Changing color end caps on a Trinity Duo 1 motor. (Putting a Red end cap on a 13.5 wind) is level 8 capability-cheating.
  • A spec ESC without boost/timing is level 10 capability-cheating. Very easy and non traceable.
This movement by ROAR and some of the ESC manufacturers to take out timing and boost and produce a "spec" ESC already failed before it started. This is the stupidest idea that anybody who wrote their first line of computer code will be able to comprehend. Blinking lights, beeps and start-up whistles proposed are simple appeasements.

Let's fast forward 1 year from now... Brand B Stock Spec ESC is the hot seller because it is winning all the time by a few fast racers. Everyone thinks it is the Brand B's speed controller instead of the sponsored racer's skills. Brand A not to be undone will make a slight running change to their code and up the internal timing and give it only to their sponsored racers. It will have internal time delayed code that bypasses all known checks for timing, frequency, etc. It is now faster and wins all the time. Brand A is now the hot seller.
Spec racing has to be done mechanically, not electronically.
A true spec ESC will cost about $500 if done right (a lot of steps along the way). To accomplish this, the code has to made public. A spec hardware has to be owned by ROAR and licensed to all the manufactures under a legal binding agreement backed up by a $500,000 Performance Bond. The resulting ESC is made and sent to a 3rd party company for installation of the software. The software port is then destroyed on the ESC and entire ESC is then encase in a non-tampered casing, preferably Epoxy.

The solution to reduce speed for those that claim electric TC is getting too fast and they want a slow class that they can be the fastest and win in:
Leave the ESC open. The operation of a brushless motor is already physically limited to 60 degrees of timing. Timing and boost is just moving the power band around. Limit speed by the brushless motor turn. Make the Spec class 25.5, 30.5, whatever. Motor turn is easy to check physically, mechanically specification. It is easy to check and understandable by every layman with an eyesight, screwdriver and an cheap LCR meter.

Oh yeah, limit the racers in a trophy race to only one brushless motor. (The next performance controversy coming up if left unchecked is a fresh motor every round)

Let's not put Electric RC down one more notch by going down this ridiculous path of a Spec -no boost,no timing- ESC. In computers, there is a simple law:
You cannot manage (tech. inspect in R/C terms) something that you cannot measure.
I don't want to repost this a year from now and said "I told you so".


History in "the need to cheat in racing":
Google on Toyota's 1995 cheating scandal in WRC. That was done mechanically with physical parts under the noses of every engineer and scrutineer for several years. Toyota would have a hard-on if an electronic ESC was available to them.

Every racing-rule-making body should make the Toyota scandal a case study.
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Old 06-23-2010, 08:04 PM   #30
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All this talk about speedo regulations just reminds me why I quit racing electric touring cars in the first place, gas is so much easier with everyone racing mod speeds in a class that just doesn't change.

I just dont understand this obsession with slow the cars down to tyco speeds and in this case timing ramp restrictions look to be the worst possible way to do so. If the REAL goal is to slow the cars, a reduction of either motor or battery is would be much easier and more effective.

I am surprised to see no talk of the "freq ramping" speedos that almost indistinguishable in speed from the timing ramp models that would meet the new spec requirements.

BTW freq ramping speedos have been around a long time and were available for brushed speedos too.

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