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Old 06-11-2010, 08:33 AM   #121
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Tim and Mike, Thanks for the comments regarding tire wear. I tend to agree with you. Personally I've rarely seen a set of X-Patterns wear the tread down in 1 race day. BUT...I have experienced the "death groove" in 1 day which all but makes a set of tires useless beyond that day. Do I believe some people have seen excessive tread wear....you bet. So the point of advocating slicks is not based solely on performance. I honestly think the performance gain will be minimal at best. The point is perceived value. The HPI slick is basically the same compound as the x-pattern. There's only 2 variations available so tire choice is limited and ,to some, easier. I can't see any RCGT driver going for 24mm wheels without different offsets available. Again , thats part of what RCGT is.
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Old 06-11-2010, 08:34 AM   #122
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26mm - I do believe so.

Different offsets - I'll check. What do you want?

Different wheel designs - possibly, I'll check.


Personally I think the addition of an RTR (hard) compound spec tire pretty much eliminates the diff between 21.5 and 17.5. With good race tires, you can see the grip/punch difference really well, but on these tires on the average outdoor asphalt track - I don't see it. Maybe this is the solution for continuing to standardize on 17.5 and if a group of racers wants an even lower level and run 21.5 - so be it.

On the big picture note, I've noticed some call for "leadership" or a hard rule set to define what pretty much everyone wants, aside from maybe the 21.5/17.5 debate. Would it be helpful if Speed Passion (meaning me) drafts a set of Speed Passion GT-Spec rules? We're moving toward having our own regional and national events anyway in 2011 so it might be a good head start
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Old 06-11-2010, 09:12 AM   #123
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i was thinking RCGT was a bridge between VTA and TC....or maybe Im wrong...

the only adjustment needed is the esc rule....which the USVTA(current) has the easy solution as noted early...buy any esc that doesnt have all the adv time stuff is still ok...but dont make it a spec esc...it just makes is easier for your techs....most guys realize that a basic esc will get the job done in a class like VTA or RCGT....

and as far as changing the tires...come on guys, really whats the point....Im racing my RCGT against full blown TC on Jacos...and Im doing just fine even winning....and if tire wear is a factor...several things could be the issue...from setup to speeds to traction compound to driving style...my tires that I got last year at the USVTA Nats(2009) are the cheaper pre-mounts on chrome 5 spoke...and they still get the job done...and the belted ones are even better.....Ive ran them all year...on carpet and asphalt incl this year Nats and pulled a 3rd Place finish in the A....had some chrome chip..lol..but my mirrors stayed on(Shoo-Gooo Baby!)...

the point if you start changing tires,spec esc,spec chassis, even the wing...you start taking away to gain a little...Im a fan of RCGT cause of the look...and the stepping stone it provides to TC....Period....start adding any kind of tire and changing alot of thing and you loose what most enjoy about the class(as well as VTA)....

keep the rules that are out there now and just change the ESC ruling to what was ran at the Scale Nats this year...which BTW is what Im still running against the TC cars here and everywhere I race...

TC5R,SPX Pro 1-4,Novak 17.5B,HPI Lambo,Corvette, or Carrera GT......

good luck guys and hope for the best...but for me its just that simple
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Old 06-11-2010, 09:15 AM   #124
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Drafting rules and maintaining rules is the main issue.

HPI offered some great rules.... and then didn't keep up with technology.

VTA offers great rules and also keeps up with the changes in speed and technology. In my opinion, that what keeps a class going.

If Speedpassion is going to offer some events, then by all means they should draft a rules package AND keep up with changes in technology. That provides leadership when things go crazy, a place to deposit testing results and stability over long periods of time, provided decisions are made in the best interest of the class's goals.
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Old 06-11-2010, 09:18 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Palmer View Post
26mm - I do believe so.

Different offsets - I'll check. What do you want?

Different wheel designs - possibly, I'll check.


Personally I think the addition of an RTR (hard) compound spec tire pretty much eliminates the diff between 21.5 and 17.5. With good race tires, you can see the grip/punch difference really well, but on these tires on the average outdoor asphalt track - I don't see it. Maybe this is the solution for continuing to standardize on 17.5 and if a group of racers wants an even lower level and run 21.5 - so be it.

On the big picture note, I've noticed some call for "leadership" or a hard rule set to define what pretty much everyone wants, aside from maybe the 21.5/17.5 debate. Would it be helpful if Speed Passion (meaning me) drafts a set of Speed Passion GT-Spec rules? We're moving toward having our own regional and national events anyway in 2011 so it might be a good head start
Shawn, wouldn't the answer be the opposite?? If these tires only offer reasonable grip, then the 17.5 guys will complain to that point. A 21.5 driver might find these tires suitable due to the slower speed. I also still believe that having a small number of compounds available is a great learning tool and a better value so drivers get the best performance per dollar spent.
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Old 06-11-2010, 09:28 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
i was thinking RCGT was a bridge between VTA and TC....or maybe Im wrong...
Not in our area. RCGT had more mass appeal because of the modern bodies. Let's be honest. Not many R/C programs have enough of a turn out to command running so many classes. VTA, RCGT, 17.5, 13.5, mod, 1/12th scale. We trimmed down our program to RCGT, 17.5, and 1/12th scale.
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Old 06-11-2010, 09:33 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
i was thinking RCGT was a bridge between VTA and TC....or maybe Im wrong...

the only adjustment needed is the esc rule....which the USVTA(current) has the easy solution as noted early...buy any esc that doesnt have all the adv time stuff is still ok...but dont make it a spec esc...it just makes is easier for your techs....most guys realize that a basic esc will get the job done in a class like VTA or RCGT....

and as far as changing the tires...come on guys, really whats the point....Im racing my RCGT against full blown TC on Jacos...and Im doing just fine even winning....and if tire wear is a factor...several things could be the issue...from setup to speeds to traction compound to driving style...my tires that I got last year at the USVTA Nats(2009) are the cheaper pre-mounts on chrome 5 spoke...and they still get the job done...and the belted ones are even better.....Ive ran them all year...on carpet and asphalt incl this year Nats and pulled a 3rd Place finish in the A....had some chrome chip..lol..but my mirrors stayed on(Shoo-Gooo Baby!)...

the point if you start changing tires,spec esc,spec chassis, even the wing...you start taking away to gain a little...Im a fan of RCGT cause of the look...and the stepping stone it provides to TC....Period....start adding any kind of tire and changing alot of thing and you loose what most enjoy about the class(as well as VTA)....

keep the rules that are out there now and just change the ESC ruling to what was ran at the Scale Nats this year...which BTW is what Im still running against the TC cars here and everywhere I race...

TC5R,SPX Pro 1-4,Novak 17.5B,HPI Lambo,Corvette, or Carrera GT......

good luck guys and hope for the best...but for me its just that simple
You are absolutely right, RCGT can be considered a bridge or step toward TC but many see it more as a stand alone program....just like VTA. Some people will happily stay with VTA and run nothing else.
Just like VTA, the RCGT rules were made at a time before major changes occured and now must be revamped. I think many of us active, more experienced drivers have to remember that these changes have to occur with an eye on the target market.....Sportsman drivers. If you're an expert or advanced driver and you want that big jump in speed, you should be concentrating on TC....which should also be a ladder step from RCGT. The ability to use your RCGT car in TC just by changing tires and body shouldn't exist. Thus RCGT, like VTA , maintains its individual integrity.
The tires are a really minor point BUT also a very minor change !! As I said earlier, the performance gain would likely be minimal. I think this goes back to perceived value.....for the greater number of drivers and not just for those who have seen little problem with the x-patterns. I also believe that, for some, the slick tire just fits the RCGT appearance better. Cool factor counts.

Last edited by Evoracer; 06-11-2010 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 06-11-2010, 11:23 AM   #128
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Hmmm....anybody else see that light at the end of the tunnel !?
Get ready for it..........
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Old 06-11-2010, 11:34 AM   #129
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I decided to build and race one due to the realistic bodies and tires. TC has become so out of touch with reality that I am no longer interested in it. I thought the rules were already set in stone regarding RCGT. I decided to put a car together by the rules thet were stated to me. Cyclone TC / Cirtix 17.5 combo / Saleen Body / HPI X Pattern tires. I was able to put the car together for under $400.00 not counting the servo and transponder. So far I have only ran it on an indoor carpet track 90 x 45. The speed is decent but not balistic, very controllable. I plan on running it in the OC Circuit outdoors. I think on the larger tracks a 21.5 would be too slow and boring.

I temporarily converted the car to a TC to run a spec class, and to tell you the truth, it handles better set up as RCGT.

I consider myself an intermediate driver and I know my limits as far as ability. I do this for fun. I don't have 7 days a week to practice and improve my skills. I started back in the early 90's at the Ranch Pit stop racing oval. I started as a NOVICE, there it is I said it, and I set a goal for myself that I would not move up until I won at least 2 a mains. I don't understand the fear in using that term or using BEGINNER for a class. New racers need to be realistic and accept what they are. Too many want to jump right in and be a PRO.

RCGT under the current rules is a good class to start in. I would agree with limiting the ESC to the spec and regular ESC's. No need for the RS or others like it in this class.

What I have witnessed is a constant desire to dilute a class. Set the rules, keep it simple and enforce them and abide by them.

Just my .02
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Old 06-11-2010, 11:50 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by svines1972 View Post
I decided to build and race one due to the realistic bodies and tires. TC has become so out of touch with reality that I am no longer interested in it. I thought the rules were already set in stone regarding RCGT. I decided to put a car together by the rules thet were stated to me. Cyclone TC / Cirtix 17.5 combo / Saleen Body / HPI X Pattern tires. I was able to put the car together for under $400.00 not counting the servo and transponder. So far I have only ran it on an indoor carpet track 90 x 45. The speed is decent but not balistic, very controllable. I plan on running it in the OC Circuit outdoors. I think on the larger tracks a 21.5 would be too slow and boring.

I temporarily converted the car to a TC to run a spec class, and to tell you the truth, it handles better set up as RCGT.

I consider myself an intermediate driver and I know my limits as far as ability. I do this for fun. I don't have 7 days a week to practice and improve my skills. I started back in the early 90's at the Ranch Pit stop racing oval. I started as a NOVICE, there it is I said it, and I set a goal for myself that I would not move up until I won at least 2 a mains. I don't understand the fear in using that term or using BEGINNER for a class. New racers need to be realistic and accept what they are. Too many want to jump right in and be a PRO.

RCGT under the current rules is a good class to start in. I would agree with limiting the ESC to the spec and regular ESC's. No need for the RS or others like it in this class.

What I have witnessed is a constant desire to dilute a class. Set the rules, keep it simple and enforce them and abide by them.

Just my .02
Nicely Done !!! And keep your grip on that car.....you're gonna need it !! RCGT isn't going away.
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Old 06-11-2010, 12:16 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svines1972 View Post
I decided to build and race one due to the realistic bodies and tires. TC has become so out of touch with reality that I am no longer interested in it. I thought the rules were already set in stone regarding RCGT. I decided to put a car together by the rules thet were stated to me. Cyclone TC / Cirtix 17.5 combo / Saleen Body / HPI X Pattern tires. I was able to put the car together for under $400.00 not counting the servo and transponder. So far I have only ran it on an indoor carpet track 90 x 45. The speed is decent but not balistic, very controllable. I plan on running it in the OC Circuit outdoors. I think on the larger tracks a 21.5 would be too slow and boring.

I temporarily converted the car to a TC to run a spec class, and to tell you the truth, it handles better set up as RCGT.

I consider myself an intermediate driver and I know my limits as far as ability. I do this for fun. I don't have 7 days a week to practice and improve my skills. I started back in the early 90's at the Ranch Pit stop racing oval. I started as a NOVICE, there it is I said it, and I set a goal for myself that I would not move up until I won at least 2 a mains. I don't understand the fear in using that term or using BEGINNER for a class. New racers need to be realistic and accept what they are. Too many want to jump right in and be a PRO.

RCGT under the current rules is a good class to start in. I would agree with limiting the ESC to the spec and regular ESC's. No need for the RS or others like it in this class.

What I have witnessed is a constant desire to dilute a class. Set the rules, keep it simple and enforce them and abide by them.

Just my .02
I highlighted the bold points since they are very pertinent to the discussion.

If racers can spend close to $1,000 for racing, they can surely spend $80 on a Speed Passion Citrix combo.

As far as 21.5, totally agree. It can be very slow on large tracks such as the one Apex and I race at.

This is some very good input right here.
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Old 06-11-2010, 12:59 PM   #132
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RE: RCGT

Hi everyone. Let me introduce myself, my name is Andrew Hilman, I am an avid motorsports fan (full size), RC enthusiast and Graphics Designer at hpi racing.

I came up with the concept of RCGT several years ago, 2004 to be exact, in an attempt to better blend my love of full sized motor sports with my enthusiasm for RC Car Racing. At that time we (hpi) had an opportunity to run an RC event in conjunction with a visit by JGTC to California Speedway (now called Super GT, Japanese GT car series...Nissan vs Honda vs Toyota etc... http://supergt.net/en/ ). The name RCGT simply means RC + GT, a simple concept of the RC version of GT car racing. The event went well, although we did not really move forward with it right after that.

It was in 2008 that we, with the help of several other people, decided to try making a series out of it and see what happens. Again with the main intention being that it is an RC series for those that are also fans of the real full size GT cars. That is the key point with RCGT, that unless you are a fan of the full size GT cars and want to replicate that in scale RC size, then you're never going to fully appreciate the class. Which is just fine because there many other RC classes out there. Hence the dilemma I/we faced as the series continued, how do you satisfy the hardcore RC guys and still keep it RCGT?

We learned some very important lessons in 2009, the most important being that you cannot loose focus on what RCGT is about. And no it does mean that it needs to become a battle between RCGT and the regular TC classes at all. It simply means that if you're into the GT cars and the scale aspect of it then great, but if you're into ultimate RC performance then this is not the class for you.

In a nutshell it's about dreaming of that Falken GT2 Porsche 911 at Laguna Seca, realizing that you're not a racing driver and/or have millions of dollars to do it, and wanting to replicate it in 1/10th scale RC form. Because then you're main goal would be getting a realistic body, realistic livery, BBS wheels etc etc. And not sacrificing any of that for the sake of RC performance.

The RCGT format has always left itself open as far as specific track/organizers are concerned as long as the spirit of the format is in play.

The RCGT name and logotype is an hpi racing trademark. Mainly because we would like to insure that, however others may end up running they're own GT inspired programs, we do not loose the original form of RCGT for our own current and future use. In regards to other organizers and/or manufacturers running a GT format event or series, that is great as long as they do not use the RCGT name and/or logotype.

In regards to the tire issue, X-Patterns became the suggested spec tire simply because of availability. Currently as far as 26mm touring car tires, the 3 X-Pattern compounds are the most widely available. That is also why we left it open to the 3 different compounds. Again to not run into a potential situation where "the only 1 spec tire" happens to be "out" and no one can run the class. As far as wheels are concerned I have from the beginning always made it open to any realistic 26mm wheels.

I hope that I've answered some questions and shed some light on the concept of RCGT.

Thank you,

AndyH
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Old 06-11-2010, 01:21 PM   #133
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Quote:
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I highlighted the bold points since they are very pertinent to the discussion.

If racers can spend close to $1,000 for racing, they can surely spend $80 on a Speed Passion Citrix combo.

As far as 21.5, totally agree. It can be very slow on large tracks such as the one Apex and I race at.

This is some very good input right here.
HarryN - Agree as well. If you're racing tomorrow we can talk it over. If there is a fall RCGT series we may have to implement a spec ESC\Motor combo for the class.
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Old 06-11-2010, 01:40 PM   #134
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HarryN - Agree as well. If you're racing tomorrow we can talk it over. If there is a fall RCGT series we may have to implement a spec ESC\Motor combo for the class.
Unfortunately, I will not be in tomorrow. Fridays and Mondays are my free days to come over to the track, namely because of girlfriend obligations.

But I am thinking of pioneering the Citrix combo at the track. I'll have to make an order for a set.

As far as that wheel/tire combo Shawn Palmer mentioned, we could try pushing that as well. $15 for a set of 4 pre-mounted wheels is a damn good deal!!!

Shawn Palmer: can you keep us posted when the Blast Off wheels will be in stock? I may purchase a couple sets from you and try them out and see how they do.
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Old 06-11-2010, 01:40 PM   #135
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ROAR has made no boost rules for ESCs in one of their classes, and will most likely force it inn more, the no boost route is the way to go.
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