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Old 06-18-2010, 03:25 PM   #301
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Here's a crazy suggestion....What if the tire rule were "Any 26mm,treaded or slick tire with any insert. Treaded or slick tire choice will be at club or race organizer discretion PER CLASS.
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:35 PM   #302
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Here's a crazy suggestion....What if the tire rule were "Any 26mm,treaded or slick tire with any insert. Treaded or slick tire choice will be at club or race organizer discretion PER CLASS.
That's something I've been in favor of as I'd just mount up a good set of slicks and be done with it for a few months. Seems to me to be the most cost-effective approach in the long run.

However, others argue that this will lead to too much confusion and intimidation for new racers and/or too big a performance advantage for those "in the know". Another argument used is that people will feel obliged to spend a ton of money trying every combination, and if you don't have the right combo for a certain set of conditions you'll be off the back.
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:39 PM   #303
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That's something I've been in favor of as I'd just mount up a good set of slicks and be done with it for a few months. Seems to me to be the most cost-effective approach in the long run.

However, others argue that this will lead to too much confusion and intimidation for new racers and/or too big a performance advantage for those "in the know". Another argument used is that people will feel obliged to spend a ton of money trying every combination, and if you don't have the right combo for a certain set of conditions you'll be off the back.
Thats true Pete although there shouldn't be too much confusion given the limit placed by each group. And if we specify 26mm....theres obviously only so many choices. My impression from whats going on is that "low budget" would win out over performance. With the 26mm stipulation ,at least everyone has the opportunity to use the wide selection of 26mm wheels. Lets face it, most people will gravitate towards whatever the majority of drivers are running.
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:48 PM   #304
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I guess my thinking is that the racers know best. The rules may never satisfy the majority if we don't just let them have the broadest possible choice....within reason. So instead of pinpointing a particular tire....simply make it a broad based guideline of 26mm. So many voices....so many different needs. Let them decide for themselves. It appears we're fighting to many battles. Price is important, type is important, availability is important,performance is important......problem is that there doesn't appear to be just ONE choice to fit all those requirements. And even if there was.....to many people will decide they don't want it. Let the drivers spend what they want based on whats available and what performance they want within the very simple 26mm guideline
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Old 06-18-2010, 04:14 PM   #305
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So why not go all the way back then? Any tire on any realistic spoked wheel? Then I could mount up a set of Sorex 36s with Hara medium inserts on super-realistic Tamiya 24mm wheels and be done for the summer.

Too TC-like again? It is remarkably similar to one of the nicer aspects of TC -- great tires that last a long time at slower speeds. Is that so wrong?
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Old 06-18-2010, 04:18 PM   #306
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So why not go all the way back then? Any tire on any realistic spoked wheel? Then I could mount up a set of Sorex 36s with Hara medium inserts on super-realistic Tamiya 24mm wheels and be done for the summer.

Too TC-like again? It is remarkably similar to one of the nicer aspects of TC -- great tires that last a long time at slower speeds. Is that so wrong?
Do we "spec" according to club or organizer discretion ? IE: Its probably not cool to have 1 driver running 24mm and another using 26mm....even if it is their choice. Thoughts? And yes, I'm not crazy about 24mm simply because of that "bridge to TC" thing but maybe I'm the only one. And I really do believe that MOST drivers still like the tremendous wheel choices only available in 26mm.
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Old 06-19-2010, 09:48 AM   #307
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So why not go all the way back then? Any tire on any realistic spoked wheel? Then I could mount up a set of Sorex 36s with Hara medium inserts on super-realistic Tamiya 24mm wheels and be done for the summer.

Too TC-like again? It is remarkably similar to one of the nicer aspects of TC -- great tires that last a long time at slower speeds. Is that so wrong?
I like this idea, and really to combat the thought of people spending too much money on figuring out what slick/insert to use all you need to do is look at the fast TC guys once, or in this case ask the club VP Any tire/insert combo (that was found to work well on a certain track) could be made a spec tire also for a larger race and then getting a price deal through a sponsor like HPI (who is looking for events to sponsor) would take down the cost of people running at that track for months.

That being said Pete, I noticed last race during my two battery practice session and my one heat that the X-patterns really held up well. I'm not sure if that would be attributed to the new spray mix you guys were talking about or not but it's a thought..

Also I am curious if an esc manufacturer can chime in a bit more on the "0 timing" issue. As far as I know esc timing is really a lot like a fuel map. The timing of the motor is a totally separate issue. Doesn't a 0-timing esc just replicate older esc's that didn't have changeable throttle profiles or current limiting? Isn't timing control at the esc just about being able to control the amount of current you throw at the motor at a certain throttle point? If that is truly the case then how is the SP Cirtrix different from the esc's on the ROAR list? They all have a set timing profile that is not adjustable. Isn't that just like old esc's? With the addition of boost I have become thoroughly confused! I know that the boost settings usually just allow for a change in the profile at top speed or full throttle, so isn't that just like a variable current limiting on the fly?
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Old 06-19-2010, 10:21 AM   #308
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I like this idea, and really to combat the thought of people spending too much money on figuring out what slick/insert to use all you need to do is look at the fast TC guys once, or in this case ask the club VP Any tire/insert combo (that was found to work well on a certain track) could be made a spec tire also for a larger race and then getting a price deal through a sponsor like HPI (who is looking for events to sponsor) would take down the cost of people running at that track for months.

That being said Pete, I noticed last race during my two battery practice session and my one heat that the X-patterns really held up well. I'm not sure if that would be attributed to the new spray mix you guys were talking about or not but it's a thought..

Also I am curious if an esc manufacturer can chime in a bit more on the "0 timing" issue. As far as I know esc timing is really a lot like a fuel map. The timing of the motor is a totally separate issue. Doesn't a 0-timing esc just replicate older esc's that didn't have changeable throttle profiles or current limiting? Isn't timing control at the esc just about being able to control the amount of current you throw at the motor at a certain throttle point? If that is truly the case then how is the SP Cirtrix different from the esc's on the ROAR list? They all have a set timing profile that is not adjustable. Isn't that just like old esc's? With the addition of boost I have become thoroughly confused! I know that the boost settings usually just allow for a change in the profile at top speed or full throttle, so isn't that just like a variable current limiting on the fly?
Hey, I thought I'd at least chime in on your thoughts until Pete answers.
The primary reason for suggesting 26mm isn't to make things any more difficult but simply the ONLY way to allow people to continue having the option of all the available custom wheels in various offsets. I've been looking for 24mm wheels for 3 days and there simply aren't very many out there. Those that are (Hotworks for example) are really not very good. Going 26mm WILL limit compound and insert choices to a less dizzying number simply because there aren't that many available. With tires changing constantly, it gets tough to actually spec one. Aside from different performance requirements, availability becomes an issue. So the suggestion allows for some open endedness. With only the stipulation of 26mm...we can ALWAYS find a tire to suit our individual tastes.
The honest answer is that these problems were considered when HPI chose the x-pattern. It was a GOOD tire in 3 compounds that was readily available (and still is).The problem now, after using them for a time, is that the wear vs. cost issue has come to light.
Nobody has been able to suggest a tire that fits EVERY desire. Concessions will have to be made , just as they were with the x-pattern. Everybody knew this wasn't a TC race tire.
So we have to ask ourselves:

1.Do we want a tire that will work with the widest variety of wheels ??

2.Will we need multiple compounds to suit performance needs or willing to settle for 1 that MIGHT be only reasonable in all conditions??

The x-pattern is still considered the standard tire. What we seem to be leaning toward is a SLICK option tire that will fit the needs or replace the x-pattern as the standard. I say we leave the x-pattern in and find an additional option tire. Thoughts ??
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Old 06-19-2010, 10:36 AM   #309
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Hey, I thought I'd at least chime in on your thoughts until Pete answers.
The primary reason for suggesting 26mm isn't to make things any more difficult but simply the ONLY way to allow people to continue having the option of all the available custom wheels in various offsets. I've been looking for 24mm wheels for 3 days and there simply aren't very many out there. Those that are (Hotworks for example) are really not very good. Going 26mm WILL limit compound and insert choices to a less dizzying number simply because there aren't that many available. With tires changing constantly, it gets tough to actually spec one. Aside from different performance requirements, availability becomes an issue. So the suggestion allows for some open endedness. With only the stipulation of 26mm...we can ALWAYS find a tire to suit our individual tastes.
The honest answer is that these problems were considered when HPI chose the x-pattern. It was a GOOD tire in 3 compounds that was readily available (and still is).The problem now, after using them for a time, is that the wear vs. cost issue has come to light.
Nobody has been able to suggest a tire that fits EVERY desire. Concessions will have to be made , just as they were with the x-pattern. Everybody knew this wasn't a TC race tire.
So we have to ask ourselves:

1.Do we want a tire that will work with the widest variety of wheels ??

2.Will we need multiple compounds to suit performance needs or willing to settle for 1 that MIGHT be only reasonable in all conditions??

The x-pattern is still considered the standard tire. What we seem to be leaning toward is a SLICK option tire that will fit the needs or replace the x-pattern as the standard. I say we leave the x-pattern in and find an additional option tire. Thoughts ??
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Old 06-19-2010, 01:13 PM   #310
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This may have been suggested before but what about running any treaded tire? I know there are a whole bunch of treaded designs out there. I still like the idea of any tire/any insert on any realistic spoked wheel option. That way anybody can come out and run whatever they have that is not a dedicated race wheel. Sadly though I think this option will bring us closer to TC and farther from scale realism so if this were an option then it would have to be coupled with a slower motor (21.5)

Pete, can I get you to elaborate on the silvercan class? I'd like to know more about it and I haven't been able to find anything on it. From the looks of our last race that seemed to be the "RCGT" guys consensus.
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Old 06-19-2010, 01:28 PM   #311
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This may have been suggested before but what about running any treaded tire? I know there are a whole bunch of treaded designs out there. I still like the idea of any tire/any insert on any realistic spoked wheel option. That way anybody can come out and run whatever they have that is not a dedicated race wheel. Sadly though I think this option will bring us closer to TC and farther from scale realism so if this were an option then it would have to be coupled with a slower motor (21.5)

Pete, can I get you to elaborate on the silvercan class? I'd like to know more about it and I haven't been able to find anything on it. From the looks of our last race that seemed to be the "RCGT" guys consensus.
Looks like Pete must be out having a good time somewhere !!
Most folks that have commented really don't want a treaded tire as the option. Some because the tread is usually the first thing to wear and some because they want a tire thats more realistic for racing, which means a slick.
The 21.5 is already part of the rules proposal as an option. A club or race organizer can have a designated 21.5 class and a 17.5 class if they wish.
So far, it seems the idea of allowing "any 26mm slick tire with any insert" might still be the best choice. Making a tire or insert "spec" could be left up to the club or organizer if they wish. It all falls under the " maintaining the spirit of the rule" category. Does that help??
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Old 06-19-2010, 01:46 PM   #312
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Yeah, maybe he's out at the track where I should be right now!
Sadly my amain shipment didn't come in time so I couldn't go out for testing the Cirtrix system today. He also runs offroad alternating Sundays so he maybe out there getting the track ready like a really dedicated club board member.

You know after going over HPI's newest RCGT rules I realized that the car I raced last weekend in RCGT was 100% legal for a showdown (even though it looked really silly with it's 200mm body and 190mm tire offset)
The old Tekin R1 pro with ancient software was definitely quick enough out there, even if I had major cogging issues everytime the car came to a full stop.

I ran a TC3 with a no timing Trinity 17.5 Duo and lipo pack and our classes times were inline with the intermediate 17.5 TC class.
Really makes me think that maybe RCGT should be a 21.5 class plain and simple.
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Old 06-19-2010, 02:04 PM   #313
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Really makes me think that maybe RCGT should be a 21.5 class plain and simple.
Well, if we can solve this tire issue.....you'll have your wish assuming you can get your local race promoter to go along. That issue took a bit but luckily everybody realized it was just a good option. And the Cirtix will surely be popular as it's available in both 21.5 and 17.5.
So how do feel about the any 26mm option ?? BTW, remember also that if we do this right ,there will always be room to "spec" things if a particular product comes out that offers everything the racers need and want IE: an affordable 26mm slick tire in a small number of compounds with a single insert. Now that would make my day !!!
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Old 06-19-2010, 02:20 PM   #314
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Ha! Thanks for all the lofty theories but I've been out working in the yard all morning!

I'm still uncertain about the tire thing. There are good arguments on all sides. I still kind of lean toward the "any rubber tire on any realistic rim" side.

@billdapart: The whole timing thing can get pretty complicated and it would be way easier to fill you in in person rather than write a long treatise here. In short, timing is a completely separate thing from throttle/brake profiles and current control. Also, just because an ESC has fixed or non-adjustable timing doesn't mean that it's zero timing. I think the issue with the Cirtix as it stands is that, although it's not user-adjustable, there is a "canned" timing advance scheme in the firmware. Therefore, it's not on an even playing field with true zero-timing ESCs like the GTB, Havoc, LRP AI, etc.

The silver can class is a stop-gap. A bunch of racers unhappy with ESC war RCGT but sick of waiting for a solution (understandably so) chose to go the cheap and easy route in the mean time and run silver cans. I see it as a temporary move. If you think the speed disparities are big in 17.5 between ESCs, you ain't seen nothin' until you see a juiced (but still technically legal) silver can blow by a regular one on the straight. Even out of the box there is a large variation from motor to motor. I'm confident that once the new RCGT rules package stabilizes that everyone will come back to the class.
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Old 06-19-2010, 03:41 PM   #315
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I'm still uncertain about the tire thing. There are good arguments on all sides. I still kind of lean toward the "any rubber tire on any realistic rim" side.

The silver can class is a stop-gap. A bunch of racers unhappy with ESC war RCGT but sick of waiting for a solution (understandably so) chose to go the cheap and easy route in the mean time and run silver cans. I see it as a temporary move. If you think the speed disparities are big in 17.5 between ESCs, you ain't seen nothin' until you see a juiced (but still technically legal) silver can blow by a regular one on the straight. Even out of the box there is a large variation from motor to motor. I'm confident that once the new RCGT rules package stabilizes that everyone will come back to the class.
Well that worries me, what do I need to do to "juice" one of those bad boys?
I agree completely about the tire thing. Any rubber tire on any realistic rim works for me, but I think RCGT should be a 21.5 motor only class. I also think that any esc should be ok as long as it doesn't have a boost feature.

Of course I am somewhat biased as this would really just allow me to run RCGT as I am and not have to worry about buying silvercan after silvercan to try and stay competitive with some of these old timer mini guys who can "juice" the heck out of 'em.
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