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Old 06-16-2010, 10:58 AM   #211
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Damned Pete, as many times as I've used VTA as a good resource....I missed that one. Good call !!!
HarryN...
Wings , I think thats covered....1 stipulation as already noted is that wings have to be in proportion. Looks like we're all in agreement.

esc/motor...the cirtix is already included but there's really no reason to "spec" it as the only choice. Open it up to choices within reason and we make the program more accessible. Based on price point....you'll most likely see drivers leaning toward the less expensive systems anyway.

Tires...all those numbers are good. I forgot about the premounts. The slicks should be included as an option. The option is open to each group(not the individual driver). That opens things up to cover the wide variety of temp ranges and surfaces around the country. In any case...making them an option doesn't hurt anything.

Minimum weight...looks like we have a winner at 1450

Batteries....anybody against the 30c limit ?? I'm using 4000 25c Zippy's with no problem so I'm all for it.

Bodies...as always remains good.
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Old 06-16-2010, 11:01 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Hebiki View Post
how about banning those "all white"-type paint jobs?
How bout we not worry about it...wise ass !! You know I'm kidding but don't make me smack you. That said...there are plenty of 1 color paint jobs that look great with just a few decals.
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Old 06-16-2010, 11:01 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by reenmachine View Post
...and we aren't running TC.

I think everyone agrees that the weight should be at a level where it's not a handicap to run a less-expensive chassis like a TA-05 or Cyclone TC.

USVTA uses 1450g, and they have put a lot more thought and testing into all of this over the past few years than we could ever dream to. They are also a series that puts fun, close racing and Sportsman-friendliness above all else so I trust their judgment.

I'm sure Rob or Doug could shed some light on how they arrived at 1450g, and it would be worth listening to.
USVTA will go to 1550g for the new rules starting in Sept.

With the higher weight it makes the class less about high tech low weight chassis as it is about getting your car to work. Helping with some of the testing for the USVTA the more weight we added the easier the cars were to drive.....thats the whole point making the cars easy to drive so they can be raced by a majority of skill levels....this way you do not need to break the class into two groups of novice and expert. This does nothing but thin out the class.

I like RCGT the lack of consistant racers for the class around my area sucks. I like many of the ideas you guys were talking about in here. For me the one thing that really pulls me away from the class is the tires....the cost and the life they have. Around here you have to run the Pro-comp or else you are way off pace. If the tires could be adjusted to a longer lasting tire then so be it.

The idea that I had about this is to maybe make a class thats like RCGT but more like TC in regards to the tires.....maybe call it TCGT. You would use GT type bodies or TC type bodies with only molded realistic looking wings. Use 21.5 motors and open ESC rules. raise the weight to 1450g. And open tire rule like any premounted tire or a spec tire that works and last on your track surface. Really getting back the the basics of what made Sedan racing as big as it was when the cars looked like real race cars....and at a speed most people can enjoy and control.

good luck to who ever takes control of this the class is too cool to see it die I hope with some leadership it will take off again in my area.
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Old 06-16-2010, 11:09 AM   #214
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Thanks Kevin, that helps.
In the interest of keeping RCGT distant enough from other classes and maintain its individuality, My vote is for the 1450 limit.
I think with the addition of the HPI slick option, we've got the tire wear issue to a bare minimum.
I also want to remind everyone that ,at this point, we're trying to maintain the basic program as one that HPI will continue to support. If that remains the case then certain conditions have to apply regarding tires...which means we need to look at HPI products. I've expressed my opinion before....the 26mm size allows for a much larger selection of wheels to be used. I still consider that to be important for RCGT. If anybody can prove that there's anywhere NEAR the selection of custom and racing style wheels in 24mm....you might get my attention.
And above all else....we're trying to steer AWAY from being so closely tied with TC.
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Old 06-16-2010, 12:04 PM   #215
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Batteries....anybody against the 30c limit ?? I'm using 4000 25c Zippy's with no problem so I'm all for it.

Bodies...as always remains good.
As a battery person I know it is as easy for a battery supplier to understate the C rating (and capacity) as it is to overstate it.

For bodies I would specify GT bodies only; no touring car bodies even if they are realistic.

Many GT cars are one color so to ban these would go against the scale realism concept. Most RC paint jobs that are more unrealistic than all white.
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Old 06-16-2010, 12:10 PM   #216
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The other thing we need to consider is that a bunch of dudes talking about stuff on teh internets does not a sanctioning body make. Do we need to appoint a Council of Elders? Anoint an iron-fisted dictator? Whatever it is also needs to be blessed by HPI if we are to use the RCGT name. Maybe someone at HPI will re-take the helm and keep things updated and centralized.

If there's one thing I've learned from the organizer side of this hobby, it's that a successful race program or class is made by one thing: consistency. Changing rules or leadership so often spells certain doom. Once a rule set is established it must be adhered to as universally as possible for as long as possible, and only modified to adapt to unforeseen changes such as is the case with modern ESCs.
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Old 06-16-2010, 12:17 PM   #217
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As a battery person I know it is as easy for a battery supplier to understate the C rating (and capacity) as it is to overstate it.

For bodies I would specify GT bodies only; no touring car bodies even if they are realistic.

Many GT cars are one color so to ban these would go against the scale realism concept. Most RC paint jobs that are more unrealistic than all white.
Rick, just so I understand....is the 30c stated limit a problem at our end. I don't really know what any set of rules could do to solve a problem with batteries that are misrepresented by manufacturers.

Just need a clarification on GT vs. Touring car. We're talking a NSX vs. Mazda 6 ...right?? Just want to make sure we're not talking touring car as in BMW or MB? I'll have to look again but did the HPI body rules leave that in question ??
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Old 06-16-2010, 12:24 PM   #218
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"Touring Car" is being used here in the RC context, to refer to purpose-built sedan racing bodies such as the Mazda 6, LTC-R, etc.

Yes, a BMW M3, for example, is a touring car in the real world, but a realistic M3 body is 100% legal for RCGT.
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Old 06-16-2010, 12:28 PM   #219
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The other thing we need to consider is that a bunch of dudes talking about stuff on teh internets does not a sanctioning body make. Do we need to appoint a Council of Elders? Anoint an iron-fisted dictator? Whatever it is also needs to be blessed by HPI if we are to use the RCGT name. Maybe someone at HPI will re-take the helm and keep things updated and centralized.

If there's one thing I've learned from the organizer side of this hobby, it's that a successful race program or class is made by one thing: consistency. Changing rules or leadership so often spells certain doom. Once a rule set is established it must be adhered to as universally as possible for as long as possible, and only modified to adapt to unforeseen changes such as is the case with modern ESCs.
Pete, All correct. The bottom line on all this is that HPI should have the final say as they 1. have trade right to the name RCGT and 2. Andy H. was and still is the administrator of this program.
My goal here is to present a current PROPOSED UPDATE to the existing rules and see if they'll stand behind them.
If that doesn't happen for whatever reason, I'd like to think those of us with an interest would step up and offer to be that "advisory/management counsel" you mentioned for a newly formed GT class. I would gladly volunteer since I've been so damned vocal !! and because I have a vested interest as a club director.
It seems we're a heart beat from a solid rule package that should be attractive to most folks. Perfect ain't gonna happen !! And we can't satisfy every individual belief but it will retain the original goal of RCGT.

Thanks for clearing up the body question. No changes needed...the HPI rules already state that TC bods like the Stratus,etc aren't allowed.
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Old 06-16-2010, 12:34 PM   #220
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Rick, just so I understand....is the 30c stated limit a problem at our end. I don't really know what any set of rules could do to solve a problem with batteries that are misrepresented by manufacturers.

Just need a clarification on GT vs. Touring car. We're talking a NSX vs. Mazda 6 ...right?? Just want to make sure we're not talking touring car as in BMW or MB? I'll have to look again but did the HPI body rules leave that in question ??
It will be difficult to tech determine if a battery is truly 30C even if the label says otherwise. Let's face it, this is not an immediate problem. Nobody understates the C rating. But if someone wanted to make the best GT class battery, they would offer a 50C battery with a 30C label. Nobody will know any better because it is not easy to check.

I can't think there is any way around this.

I was thinking more of the HPI Dodge Stratus and Toureza.
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Old 06-16-2010, 12:34 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by reenmachine View Post
The other thing we need to consider is that a bunch of dudes talking about stuff on teh internets does not a sanctioning body make. Do we need to appoint a Council of Elders? Anoint an iron-fisted dictator? Whatever it is also needs to be blessed by HPI if we are to use the RCGT name. Maybe someone at HPI will re-take the helm and keep things updated and centralized.

If there's one thing I've learned from the organizer side of this hobby, it's that a successful race program or class is made by one thing: consistency. Changing rules or leadership so often spells certain doom. Once a rule set is established it must be adhered to as universally as possible for as long as possible, and only modified to adapt to unforeseen changes such as is the case with modern ESCs.
I am not too keen on keeping the RCGT name, namely because if the leadership is so far behind the times and not trying to keep up with the times will certainly spell doom for the class.

I prefer the name to be GTRC since that is not taken. Or something simple as GT, GT Racing, Spec GT, or whatever that will allow the class to be open for progression as the technology progresses in tires, speed controllers, batteries, etc.
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Old 06-16-2010, 01:18 PM   #222
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Rick, thanks for clarifying. I can uderstand your point but I can only hope a widespread problem like that won't occur. And you're also right that it would be very hard to tech. Wait and see is probably the best approach.

HarryN....I understand and that is a possibility but lets see what happens with HPI. I think they've earned the right not to second guess them. I think it's clear that alot of people want a good GT program that has room for some variety in choices whether its esc's, tires, wheels, etc. We seem to have that as this proposal takes shape
And just to be clear...I think we're all in agreement that , if we have to, a new GT type program WILL happen. I know I'm in as I've already re-instated RCGT to our club effort and we're experimenting with some of these proposed changes.
Not a short discussion, not an easy one and it won't satisfy everyone but I think we've done pretty damned good to get where we're at. Thanks to everybody for keeping things honest but civil.
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:04 PM   #223
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1450 grams is going to be next to impossible to reach with cheap tub style cars. Keep in mind that our bling bling low offset wheels and tires weigh more, nobody is going to have micro receivers or low profile servos, bodies with intricate paint jobs and decals weigh more, etc. etc. My vote is for 1500 grams at least, if not 1550.
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:18 PM   #224
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Honestly, i really don't think there should be a weight limit. People will spend on what they want to spend. Keep it simple. Run what you brung.
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:28 PM   #225
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Kinda surprised you jumped in there Charlie. I think it's cool that you would. I'm glad to see the various answers ....somewhere there has to be a common ground. Although I agree with Charlie in some ways....I also see the value in having to meet weight. TJ mentioned it earlier. For those that CAN have a light weight chassis and small electronics....the difference in performance can be noticed.....particularly if it's a more experienced driver. Again I'm going to use VTA as a resource. They're going to 1550 soon. So does anyone see a legitimate problem with 1500.......or are we gonna make reenmachine a happy guy and go to 1475 !?
BTW T.J.....what are you guys using at Village ??
I'd also like to add a thought. Weight limits as part of the standard rules are great and I see the value....but keep in mind it's just another variable that can be used ..or not. At the club level or by race organizer decision....this is another choice. The goal should always be to attempt living up to the standard but nobody is gonna pluck an eye out over it.
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