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Old 06-14-2010, 08:24 PM   #181
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I've been lurking here very interested in this thread as I'm a huge fan of scale realism in RC, loved RCGT in the early days, and have been disappointed to watch it decline in our club. Not too long ago it was our largest class, people came from all over SoCal to race it with us (as part of the RCGT Showdown), and some supreme (and supremely fun) battles unfolded on the racetrack.

We're a club of 180+ members, the vast majority of whom are sportsman-level racers (mirroring the RC racing community at large). Our average racer is into fun, close, competitive, laughing-on-the-driver's-stand racing above all else. Scale realism really adds to the mix, and moderate speeds are embraced.

Since the decline of RCGT, Mini Cooper has blossomed again, and the brave have helped fuel a resurgence in F1. Both are fun, realistic classes where the emphasis is more on close racing and excitement than on flat-out speed. Still, everyone longs for RCGT but burned out quickly on the ESC $ wars and too-fast-for-most speeds that came with it.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am a Tekin team driver, and whereas the ESC advances have made for some crazy and interesting times in other classes, I truly believe they have no place in RCGT or any other Sportsman class for that matter.

Effective as of today's club meeting, our club will be adopting the ROAR Sportsman ESC list for Sportsman RCGT, Novice TC, and Intermediate 17.5 TC. It was an easy decision and received universal support from the club membership.
In keeping with the "if I were GT King" theme:
  • ROAR Sportsman ESC list (zero-timing ESCs or zero-timing profiles with easily-teched blinking indicator lights)
  • Current RCGT body rules but with molded plastic wings only (realism trumps, HPI and Tamiya make many great ones)
  • any TC chassis (I specifically left off 4WD...*cough*FF03*cough*)
  • 17.5 (although I waffle a bit on this...I have tested and really like 21.5 as well)
  • any realistic spoked wheel with any tire (mount up some Sorex 36s and run the same set all season)
  • a nice portly minimum weight to keep inexpensive, bomb-proof tub cars competitive
  • some sort of battery limit, perhaps as radical as 3800mAh 30C.

Regarding the wheels & tires: Tamiya has a nice selection of 24mm super-realistic wheels in a couple of different offsets (but not a lot). Perhaps mounting up a set of slicks is a pain to some, but it is worth it to run many, many race days on a single set. However, if it is necessary to keep the current tire rule to keep the RCGT name, then so be it. X-Patterns are great and if you set up your car right they can last, especially at the reduced speeds proposed. There is too much good faith and momentum behind the RCGT name to cast it aside.
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Old 06-14-2010, 09:10 PM   #182
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I have to admit that's some of the most reasonable comments I've seen. Nice job Pete.
Does anyone know why the Cirtix isn't on the ROAR list ?? Or is it just too new ??
Regarding tires, I agree with you that RCGT as an HPI medium would be good to keep. Having talked to HPI, the tire choice was one of practicality. They're realistic, come with a stock insert, and readily available. All good points. I for one don't mind keeping them in play if it'll make a difference. The other choice would be to ask HPI to allow the OPTIONAL use of their 26mm slick available in pro and racing compound.

As for the ROAR motor/esc list....I like it. But the Cirtix buyers won't. As for 21.5 ....It should be a LEGAL OPTION. If you don't want it,don't use it.

Bodies...Is this lexan wing choice a big problem in some areas ?? Man, I just ran the HPI Mercedes DTM body and I can't imagine anyone saying the lexan wing would give that boat an advantage. On the other hand, even HPI seems to be moving toward producing most of their bodies with molded wings.

Batteries....it was mentioned before and It seems the 5000mah 35c maximum guideline would probably work well.

Weight should be on the fat side. Just one more aspect that really shouldn't be part of RCGT.
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Old 06-14-2010, 10:52 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Evoracer View Post
I have to admit that's some of the most reasonable comments I've seen. Nice job Pete.
Does anyone know why the Cirtix isn't on the ROAR list ?? Or is it just too new ??

As for the ROAR motor/esc list....I like it. But the Cirtix buyers won't.
I think it's just too new -- it came out roughly the same time the ROAR list did. Can anyone confirm that it's zero-timing? I've been assuming it will be included on the list and would thus be a great, low-cost entry into the class that doesn't appear to give much, if anything, up in performance to a conventional motor/ESC.

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As for 21.5 ....It should be a LEGAL OPTION. If you don't want it,don't use it.
Slow is fast. Might even be an advantage on some layouts. I know I'm sometimes faster once my pack starts to dump and I can control things a little better.

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Bodies...Is this lexan wing choice a big problem in some areas ?? Man, I just ran the HPI Mercedes DTM body and I can't imagine anyone saying the lexan wing would give that boat an advantage. On the other hand, even HPI seems to be moving toward producing most of their bodies with molded wings.
No, I'm just a scale weenie and probably overly picky about it. Not all of the lexan wings are TC-like, but the HPI Elise and a couple others come with giant TC wings that offend my sensibilities. Tamiya even makes some lexan wings that are still molded to be realistic-looking like the one that came with my C5R body.

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Batteries....it was mentioned before and It seems the 5000mah 35c maximum guideline would probably work well.
Yes, something like that. I just don't want people to have the perception that they need a $125 5200mAh 50C pack to be competitive. Whether it's true or not, it's the perception.

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Weight should be on the fat side. Just one more aspect that really shouldn't be part of RCGT.
Yes. I couldn't be more opposed to mandating a single chassis though. Having seen JL-10s whoop ass on 416s, X-Rays, etc. I see no need to limit the selection. Again, at the proposed speeds chassis isn't all that critical. A properly-set up TA-05 or Cyclone S is all you need.
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Old 06-14-2010, 11:59 PM   #184
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I could be wrong, but as we discussed Dino, I believe the Cirtix does have *some* timing as does the LRP TC Spec, which for a time made it the esc to have over the GTB. (which might explain why it's not on the list as well.)Not to be confused with adjustable timing "boost" though, which is where the current problems seem to be coming from...



...or maybe it's too new lol
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Old 06-15-2010, 12:56 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by stitchy View Post
I could be wrong, but as we discussed Dino, I believe the Cirtix does have *some* timing as does the LRP TC Spec, which for a time made it the esc to have over the GTB. (which might explain why it's not on the list as well.)Not to be confused with adjustable timing "boost" though, which is where the current problems seem to be coming from...



...or maybe it's too new lol
The LRP TC Spec does introduce timing and is not on the list for that reason. The CIRTIX is not to new.... there is an issue surrounding timing and is currently being addressed by SP.
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Old 06-15-2010, 07:00 AM   #186
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Old 06-15-2010, 08:18 AM   #187
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As far as the wheels and tires, why wouldn't we include Tamiya's wheels and tires? Tamiya offers 24mm realistic rims and treaded tires as well. And depending on how testing goes with the Blast Off tires, why not include them as well? I'm more leaning towards the Blast Off tires because they are only $15 A SET! That is dirt cheap and very inviting to newcomers (as was the original discussion for making this class grow more).

As far as the Citrix combo, that too is something very inviting to newcomers. It is only $80 and comes complete with ESC and motor. I heard rumor that Tekin was also working on a combo like this. Regardless, I think the Citrix should be included in the list after this timing thing is sorted out.

As far as racing slicks and premounts being offered at more economical prices by HPI, I do not think this will ever happen. If it does, kudos. I still do not understand why slicks are not accepted into the GT class since real racers use slicks on dry conditions.
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Old 06-15-2010, 08:39 AM   #188
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I remember RCGT rules at one point being mod motors and any 26mm HPI tire. We tried this at our track, but mod was too fast for most guys. The real point is that they still sell the 15-40 slick tire that came with the Pro2.

I see a lot of good ideas out here, but I still say the biggest problem is that it's too close to regular sedan. Especially when the tire goes to 24mm. You may as well just mount up a cool body and register for 17.5 tc.
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Old 06-15-2010, 09:28 AM   #189
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I remember RCGT rules at one point being mod motors and any 26mm HPI tire. We tried this at our track, but mod was too fast for most guys. The real point is that they still sell the 15-40 slick tire that came with the Pro2.

I see a lot of good ideas out here, but I still say the biggest problem is that it's too close to regular sedan. Especially when the tire goes to 24mm. You may as well just mount up a cool body and register for 17.5 tc.
That is true, but I think the ultimate goal for some people is to bridge the gap between VTA and TC by using the GT class.

In my opinion, I think it could be a solid class on its own without being a bridge to anything.
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Old 06-15-2010, 09:31 AM   #190
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Rob, you hit the nail on the head.I cringe every time somebody say's "lets use this cause it works in both classes".
HarryN....I'm with you regarding slicks...It would eliminate the whole discussion of tread wear and just looks cooler.
1. HPI should get some consideration if they're expected to lend this name and their support to the program. Its a 2 way street. If we open things up to other manufacturers then we better make the decision now that we're no longer talking about RCGT. Personally I lean toward a simple fix.....make an ALLOWANCE in the rules to use the HPI 26mm slicks,part #s 4435 or 4415 at the discretion of club or race organisers. For some, the treaded tire works, for others it doesn't. Time for the drivers to make their own choices....if your club or group decides to use 1 tire or the other and you don't like it....then the fight stays localised but the rules have done their job by giving the option.
2.Stitchy...Yep, I heard you.....I just didn't realize this built in timing was enough to keep it off the ROAR list....if indeed thats the problem. Also brings up a distinct issue. So do drivers feel that the CIRTIX has a distinct advantage over any similar system like the Ballistic/Havoc Pro ?? I haven't tried the Cirtix yet so I don't know. If it's not significant enough to worry about FOR US....then we should allow it IN ADDITION to those on the ROAR list.
3. reenmachine....I agree with you on bodies Pete. Stressing the realism is number 1. My only concern is effectively making some body choices illegal simply because they have crap lexan wings. The Benz and the Elise are perfect examples.Very realistic bods but those wings gotta go. So.....maybe the rule should simply allow some control on the part of the club or organiser. Must be a realistic body and WINGS MUST BE IN PROPORTION (which means you may have to cut your lexan wing down). Any group can say they encourage the use of moulded wings just to guide driver choices. Maybe even make lexan wing bodies illegal for any concours. Basically try to gently push the effort to have or get a molded wing.
4. Sounds like we have a winner regarding batteries.....5000mah,35c max allowed. Sound good ?? This can always be changed as product changes occur but for now It sounds good. Who knows, a year from now we may have a battery half the size with twice the power.
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Old 06-15-2010, 10:37 AM   #191
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I know my track will be having the Citrix combos by Friday. I am planning on buying one and installing it into my car and see how it does. If the timing thing is only activated by the LCD panel controller, then it could be easily monitored/tech.

Any word on the blast off tires? I want to order a set and try them out as well. I race at a 100x50 track and the asphalt is pretty coarse. So I guess it would be a great place to test its durability.
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Old 06-15-2010, 02:33 PM   #192
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3. reenmachine....I agree with you on bodies Pete. Stressing the realism is number 1. My only concern is effectively making some body choices illegal simply because they have crap lexan wings. The Benz and the Elise are perfect examples.Very realistic bods but those wings gotta go. So.....maybe the rule should simply allow some control on the part of the club or organiser. Must be a realistic body and WINGS MUST BE IN PROPORTION (which means you may have to cut your lexan wing down). Any group can say they encourage the use of moulded wings just to guide driver choices. Maybe even make lexan wing bodies illegal for any concours. Basically try to gently push the effort to have or get a molded wing.
Sounds reasonable. However I never meant to suggest that the lexan-winged bodies be banned, just the wings themselves. There are plenty of accessory molded wings on the market and most, if not all, of the GT bodies have the proper geometry in place to accept them.
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Old 06-15-2010, 02:57 PM   #193
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Sounds reasonable. However I never meant to suggest that the lexan-winged bodies be banned, just the wings themselves. There are plenty of accessory molded wings on the market and most, if not all, of the GT bodies have the proper geometry in place to accept them.
Yep, thats what I'm thinking. Between Tamiya,HPI and some of the drift companies, a suitable wing should be pretty easy. So the rule is good and just leave it up to each group to enforce it. At a "sanctioned" event the molded wing or Realistic lexan wing would be a must. Even at an event a lexan wing can be cut pretty quickly. The standard rules could even have a statement to the effect IE: "Molded wings are highly encouraged"
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Old 06-15-2010, 10:49 PM   #194
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I'll have to agree about the wings. If the person cannot/did not get a GT wing with his car, but is using the molded wing, I see nothing wrong in that, provided it is not the eye-catcher versus the rest of the body.

Citrix may be coming in sooner, per what my LHS said. I am quite excited! Just need those Blast Off tires, and I can begin testing giving my thoughts.

BTW, has anyone tried out the Toyota Trueno body by HPI? It looks like it has very stable handling the way the body is shaped! I may be trying it next after I am done tearing up this Lexus SC400 body.
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Old 06-16-2010, 07:40 AM   #195
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Sounds like we're doing pretty well...looks like there's general agreement on:
1. Wings...molded highly suggested ..any lexan must be cut to proportion.Lexan wings not allowed in Concours
2. Batteries..Lipo 2S,5000mah,35c limits
3. esc/motors...according to ROAR sportsman list with addition of Cirtix 17.5 and 21.5 ( Has anyone run the cirtix and another system like the ballistic/havoc who might share a comparison ?? )
4. 21.5 available as additional option at club or race organizer discretion.
5. Tires....x-patterns are standard with option of HPI slicks #4435 or #4415 at the discretion of club or event organizer. ( doing some checking on inserts but it looks like the HPI #4677 might be the most similar to whats in the x-patterns. Keep it simple....Any thoughts ?? )

6. Body rule stays the same.

Are we there yet ?????

HarryN....look forward to your thoughts on the Cirtix. My hope is that any difference between it and something like the Havoc Pro/Ballistic are so small its not worth worrying about. Bottom line is people have options for different manufacturers. At the Cirtix pricepoint its gonna be hard to pass up on for many, many people. That is until someone steps up and competes at the same level.
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