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Old 06-09-2010, 10:22 AM   #16
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BUt how do you know? Have you had your car on a setup station and actually measured these things?

Here is an example of how I know you have a general setup problem.. you say you are running this setup, but you raised the car to 7+mm ride height (but you dont actually know your ride height, you just guessed). Well, did you readjust your downstops to keep your desired droop? I am guessing not, which means you are probably down to 0-1mm of droop front and rear... you can't JUST change the ride height, without changing your downstop settings, or you will ruin your droop settings.

So you already aren't running any sway bars, which is something I would of suggested removing... and it looks like you are running too much rear toe-in. That much rear toe-in will REALLY lock the rear to the ground, making the car difficult to turn. You could free up the rear end by dropping it down to maybe 2.5 or 2mm.

But again... without actually putting the car on a setup station, there is no way to tell what your setup ACTUALLY is.
To add, changing your ride height that much is going to have an effect on camber and toe as well, these all need to be readjusted.
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Old 06-09-2010, 10:24 AM   #17
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To add, changing your ride height that much is going to have an effect on camber and toe as well, these all need to be readjusted.
I deleted my reply. I just can't help people, that wont help me, help them.
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Old 06-09-2010, 11:06 AM   #18
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lol, now I remember why I hardly messed with any of the settings on my Pro 4.
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Old 06-09-2010, 11:11 AM   #19
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I deleted my reply. I just can't help people, that wont help me, help them.
Man, I'm not trying to frustrate you, just asking for suggestions. I never got as specific as other on road guys, because I could just drive the car. Box stock setups with minor changes are often my best bet. So I'm looking for suggestions on changes, not a complete setup.
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Old 06-09-2010, 11:19 AM   #20
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Man, I'm not trying to frustrate you, just asking for suggestions. I never got as specific as other on road guys, because I could just drive the car. Box stock setups with minor changes are often my best bet. So I'm looking for suggestions on changes, not a complete setup.
What everyone considers med traction asphalt can be severely varied, I would be pretty sure that the box stock t2r setup on a prepped track would not feel like it does on your track. The pro4 was developed when outdoor WAS parking lot racing, and I'd be the stock setup is better suited for it. I had that car when it came out 3 years ago, and my car was very tweaked out of the box, always pushed left, hooked right and wouldn't even drive straight, I ended up buying the CF chassis and parts to make it a real t2, but I never liked the way that car felt. I ended up with a type-r which with the box setup was much better balanced for me.
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Old 06-09-2010, 12:45 PM   #21
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Man, I'm not trying to frustrate you, just asking for suggestions. I never got as specific as other on road guys, because I could just drive the car. Box stock setups with minor changes are often my best bet. So I'm looking for suggestions on changes, not a complete setup.
I know you aren't trying to frustrate me... but pointing me to a setup sheet that you followed.. and taking actual measurements from a setup station, are two totally different things.... especially if your car has yet to ever go on a station.
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Old 06-09-2010, 01:43 PM   #22
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I know you aren't trying to frustrate me... but pointing me to a setup sheet that you followed.. and taking actual measurements from a setup station, are two totally different things.... especially if your car has yet to ever go on a station.
Yeah, I'm looking into getting one. Like I said, I never bothered making many changes to my other cars, they all worked much better out of the box. The more I think about it, the more I just wanna get rid of the spool and go with what works... a one way.
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Old 06-10-2010, 01:45 PM   #23
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FOUND SOMETHING! I'm not sure if it's the main reason, but certainly an influence. I was going through my car, looking for loose screws, wires, etc... as anyone should do after running a new car a few times. I was revving it up on the bench, its smooth(love the Xray smoothness), that is until I turned the front wheels. It sounds TERRIBLE when I turn the front wheels more than about 30 degrees. I'm at my shop and can't post it, but I did take a vid to demonstrate. Initially, I found one of the CVD drive pins started to come out. Put it back and it still does it. I cannot see what's vibrating. It almost seems like the CVDs cannot deflect very far without severe vibration. I'm thinking this could be why my car turns in so poorly.

Theories, suggestions?
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Old 06-10-2010, 01:49 PM   #24
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FOUND SOMETHING! I'm not sure if it's the main reason, but certainly an influence. I was going through my car, looking for loose screws, wires, etc... as anyone should do after running a new car a few times. I was revving it up on the bench, its smooth(love the Xray smoothness), that is until I turned the front wheels. It sounds TERRIBLE when I turn the front wheels more than about 30 degrees. I'm at my shop and can't post it, but I did take a vid to demonstrate. Initially, I found one of the CVD drive pins started to come out. Put it back and it still does it. I cannot see what's vibrating. It almost seems like the CVDs cannot deflect very far without severe vibration. I'm thinking this could be why my car turns in so poorly.

Theories, suggestions?
These are normal characteristics when using a spool. So nothing special there.
If it is really really bad, lower your steering EPA value.
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Old 06-10-2010, 02:22 PM   #25
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Try some anti-dive in the front
Yeh, Yeh....how bout you get a hall pass so you can come out and lend some of that expertise to us rookies !!
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Old 06-10-2010, 02:28 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by R40Victim View Post
FOUND SOMETHING! I'm not sure if it's the main reason, but certainly an influence. I was going through my car, looking for loose screws, wires, etc... as anyone should do after running a new car a few times. I was revving it up on the bench, its smooth(love the Xray smoothness), that is until I turned the front wheels. It sounds TERRIBLE when I turn the front wheels more than about 30 degrees. I'm at my shop and can't post it, but I did take a vid to demonstrate. Initially, I found one of the CVD drive pins started to come out. Put it back and it still does it. I cannot see what's vibrating. It almost seems like the CVDs cannot deflect very far without severe vibration. I'm thinking this could be why my car turns in so poorly.

Theories, suggestions?
Yes chatter does affect handling, xray has ECS versions of their driveshafts that eliminate that, but they cost half as much as your car Pretty much all single joint axles chatter with a spool, some less than others. You can lower your steering throw and then tune in steering with camber links, rear toe, etc.
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:04 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by R40Victim View Post
FOUND SOMETHING! I'm not sure if it's the main reason, but certainly an influence. I was going through my car, looking for loose screws, wires, etc... as anyone should do after running a new car a few times. I was revving it up on the bench, its smooth(love the Xray smoothness), that is until I turned the front wheels. It sounds TERRIBLE when I turn the front wheels more than about 30 degrees. I'm at my shop and can't post it, but I did take a vid to demonstrate. Initially, I found one of the CVD drive pins started to come out. Put it back and it still does it. I cannot see what's vibrating. It almost seems like the CVDs cannot deflect very far without severe vibration. I'm thinking this could be why my car turns in so poorly.

Theories, suggestions?
It sounds like you used too much loctite, and it mixed with your black grease on your front drive shafts. When that happens the grease itself turns to glue.... the loctite contaminates the grease... common build issue with new xray kit builders

Take a front drive shaft out of the car compeltely, hold it in your hands, and see if the axle half of the shaft can freely bend in all directions. If it is free side to side, but binds going up and down (or vicaversa), that is your issue...

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These are normal characteristics when using a spool. So nothing special there.
If it is really really bad, lower your steering EPA value.
WRONG
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Last edited by Cpt.America; 06-10-2010 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 06-10-2010, 06:49 PM   #28
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I know you aren't trying to frustrate me... but pointing me to a setup sheet that you followed.. and taking actual measurements from a setup station, are two totally different things.... especially if your car has yet to ever go on a station.
I always struggled with setting the front end toe-out on my 1/12th car. Then I saw Brian Wynn measuring the distance between the front of the rims and then between the rear of the rims.

Did some experimenting and found that 0.6mm difference from front to rear is very close to 1 degree of toe-out and for WGT 0.8mm is the same. The difference is, of course the diameter of the rim.

Now, I suppose you could do the same with the top and bottom of sedan wheels for both toe-in/out and camber as well. The trick is that the car has to be sitting on the ground when making the camber measurements.

Anyway, this could be a way of avoiding the cost of a setup station.
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Old 06-10-2010, 08:03 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Cpt.America View Post
It sounds like you used too much loctite, and it mixed with your black grease on your front drive shafts. When that happens the grease itself turns to glue.... the loctite contaminates the grease... common build issue with new xray kit builders

Take a front drive shaft out of the car compeltely, hold it in your hands, and see if the axle half of the shaft can freely bend in all directions. If it is free side to side, but binds going up and down (or vicaversa), that is your issue...



WRONG
When building drive shafts I typically use red loc tite. That way, I can use less, and it's unlikely to fly apart during a race. I'll remove them again tomorrow, and see if they're free or not. I didn't notice any stiffness when I was re-centering the pins. One front and one rear came loose on opposite sides. Coincidence, I dunno... still learning this car. I have a stain gun that shoots acetone at high pressure. I can blast them clean and rebuild them, being very careful with the loc-tite this time.

Thanks for the help guys, I'll get a chance to mess with it tomorrow. I'm not entirely ready to give up on the spool, but it's gotta change from what it's doing now.
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Old 06-10-2010, 09:11 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by R40Victim View Post
FOUND SOMETHING! I'm not sure if it's the main reason, but certainly an influence. I was going through my car, looking for loose screws, wires, etc... as anyone should do after running a new car a few times. I was revving it up on the bench, its smooth(love the Xray smoothness), that is until I turned the front wheels. It sounds TERRIBLE when I turn the front wheels more than about 30 degrees. I'm at my shop and can't post it, but I did take a vid to demonstrate. Initially, I found one of the CVD drive pins started to come out. Put it back and it still does it. I cannot see what's vibrating. It almost seems like the CVDs cannot deflect very far without severe vibration. I'm thinking this could be why my car turns in so poorly.

Theories, suggestions?
The car doesn't vibrate or chatter under a load.It only does it sitting on a tech stand sitting still.
My car did some weird things when I changed settings on my speedo.I fought it until I found out it was in my radio .I had to change some radio settings to suit the changes I made in the speedo settings.
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