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Old 05-17-2004, 12:43 PM   #61
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P.S. - Yeah...I raced the Mazda yesterday and loved it...Very good handling...yet not too much downforce in the rear. Of course that could be because I cut the height of the rear wing 1/2 from what it was supposed to be.

Remember...YOU determine how your body will handle...If you alter the wing by cutting it down, you lessen rear downforce. If you trim a substantial amount off of the lower front airdam, you've cut front downforce.

You can make just about any 4-door touring body handle how you want. So don't be a sheep and pick what others do....just pick the TC body that you fancy. Thats why I got the Mazda...because she's a sleek one!
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Old 05-17-2004, 01:10 PM   #62
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I think the idea of tuning without a body is good, but isn't always practical. Of course finalizing a body to race on a particular track means testing in practise before an event. In a lot of cases, the racing officials won't let you do it. Sounds weird, but true. I think it has to do with a lot of ROAR stuff. Plus, I have a hard time looking at my car on a track without a body and I think it needs to be done in conjunction. But, if it works for you...

Black Kat:
It doesn't always mean that rules aren't there even though its a small race. Even small, parking lot races can be governed by ROAR, not because it is all strict and official, but because if track operators get ROAR to sanction, they get breaks on insurance, etc. I know you were talking about motors in a previous thread, but a lot of times even the small races have rules for a seemingly insignifcant reason.
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Old 05-17-2004, 01:13 PM   #63
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Also, even if a body isn't ROAR legal, I feel its weird to get used to something that won't be legal later. Its hard to spend a bunch of time tweaking and testing to get your set up right, then going to a sanctioned race, only to have to do the testing redone to a legal cut down wing, etc. I like to always race legal just so I'm eliminating a variable.
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Old 05-17-2004, 11:36 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by J-P
hey guys,

i agree with iceman the stratus is great out-doors and neutral but in-doors on carpet the losi alfa is awsome, i run a tc3 and changed to the losi alfa and the grip/downforce was great,

just my 2cents worth guys

J-P
NOTE: Not directly aimed toward anyone...just a thought based on the above post:


If people are either making or breaking their setup based on what body they choose, they really need to learn how to tune their cars better.

Just a few degrees of camber or caster has way more effect than any possible ROAR-legal TC body choice.
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Old 05-18-2004, 01:21 AM   #65
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My personally experience is...body makes a huge difference on a car's handling. And I'm not sure if I agree with tuning the car without the body on, because ultimately, you'll be racing with the body on. If bodies don't make a big difference, then I don't think the full size cars and real f1 teams will spend millions of dollars on wind tunnel testing and aero dynamic packages.

Personally I tried running the same suspension setup and tires and just switching the body (for example from a Stratus 2.0 to a Mazda 6) and have notice both a significant difference in feel and lap times. I agree that bodies will not make or break a setup, but it is definitely an important part of the tuning package that must be taken into consideration when setting up your car.

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Old 05-18-2004, 03:17 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by SpeedTech
My personally experience is...body makes a huge difference on a car's handling. And I'm not sure if I agree with tuning the car without the body on, because ultimately, you'll be racing with the body on. If bodies don't make a big difference, then I don't think the full size cars and real f1 teams will spend millions of dollars on wind tunnel testing and aero dynamic packages.

Personally I tried running the same suspension setup and tires and just switching the body (for example from a Stratus 2.0 to a Mazda 6) and have notice both a significant difference in feel and lap times. I agree that bodies will not make or break a setup, but it is definitely an important part of the tuning package that must be taken into consideration when setting up your car.

Steve Wang
Hey Steve...I'm flattered that you personally responded. Great job with speedtech, I've been a customer since 2001.

Anyhow....with the pleasantries out of the way; my point:

At the club level I have always noticed a good deal of "bandwagoning." As in everyone seems to jump on the latest "it" thing or trend. As the owner of speedtech, no doubt you've profited hundereds of thousands of dollars because of this fact. I'm not saying it's wrong at all, matter of fact it's half the fun of R/C...getting new goodies...but here's my point:

Most folks who say "this body does this" or "this body does that" have ZERO clue as to what they're talking about. They'll blame a bad setup on a particular body and say it's "bad...or has low downforce...etc...blah blah blah...."

My experience has shown that it all starts with T.A.S. or Tires Angles Suspension. One MUST learn and get a decent working knowledge of the true effects of camber, caster, toe, kickup, roll center, ride height, shock setup and spring rates before they can say anything about how a body effects a car.

Hence my and alot of other folks I know who will tune 80% of their cars setup before slapping on the lexan. The last 20% does of course involve the body...however you need to build a strong foundation before you start worrying about the roof.
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Old 05-18-2004, 04:08 AM   #67
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the maz 6 i geat very balanced only i did not know the wing is illegal almost go disq.
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Old 05-18-2004, 05:02 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by Soviet
Hey Steve...I'm flattered that you personally responded. Great job with speedtech, I've been a customer since 2001.

Anyhow....with the pleasantries out of the way; my point:

At the club level I have always noticed a good deal of "bandwagoning." As in everyone seems to jump on the latest "it" thing or trend. As the owner of speedtech, no doubt you've profited hundereds of thousands of dollars because of this fact. I'm not saying it's wrong at all, matter of fact it's half the fun of R/C...getting new goodies...but here's my point:

Most folks who say "this body does this" or "this body does that" have ZERO clue as to what they're talking about. They'll blame a bad setup on a particular body and say it's "bad...or has low downforce...etc...blah blah blah...."

My experience has shown that it all starts with T.A.S. or Tires Angles Suspension. One MUST learn and get a decent working knowledge of the true effects of camber, caster, toe, kickup, roll center, ride height, shock setup and spring rates before they can say anything about how a body effects a car.

Hence my and alot of other folks I know who will tune 80% of their cars setup before slapping on the lexan. The last 20% does of course involve the body...however you need to build a strong foundation before you start worrying about the roof.
Some people always find bad excuses for why their car dont run great, or more typical, why they didnt drive as good as they wanted.

My track time is limited, and I'm still in the progress of setting up my chassis - so I'm running a pretty neutral body, as a kind of reference. Earlier, I had a couple of bodies, which was far from neutral, that made it more complicated than nessecary. Once I get the chassis setup the way I like, it's time for experimenting with different bodies.

In other words, I'm trying to work with the principle of simplicity in mind.
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Old 05-18-2004, 05:42 AM   #69
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Default The Whole Body Question

ok ... I have looked at this thread a few times ... now I have to post ...

I am not the most perfect driver in the world ... look at the tag line to my posts ... but I will say this ..

I do not agree with tuning a car without a shell on it ... thats like asking the Andrettis or the Unsers to go out and run at 200 mph without wings or undercarrage groundeffects ... it just wont work ...remember the aero downforce is still being generated by that big wing on the back and those front fenders and windshield all the way down to the slowest corner at what 5 mph on a tight indoor track .. remember thats like doing 50 mph in a full size car ... you can bet theres aero going on there ...

I do agree that most dont know what they are really saying about what a body does ... when I started I ran exclusivly a stratus 1.0 body ( on the car at all times it was on the track except for testing servo center and turning radius ) until I got the car as good as I could for my driving style then after knowing what each adjustment does I started messing around with bodies ...

currently here is want I run by class / chassis / track type

stock TC on carpet w/foams - stratus 2.0 - I like how it helps the car to rotate on the grippy tight carpet tracks I run on ....

MOD TC on carpet w/foams - stratus 2.0 - for the more flowing tracks with the nose cut lower to kill some front downforce / steering rear wing also trimed in the center to the cutout line or at the end of the season I got to play with a - losi Alfa - body ... nice but a little twitchy for my tastes .. might try the protoform alfa 2.0 this winter ... for the tighter tracks I ran the - stratus 2.0 - in the same configuration as for stock or I ran the - stratus 1.0 - with the rear wing cut down a little to help it rotate but still have that overall neutral feel

TC outdoors stock and MOD - stratus 1.0 - gotta love that nice neutral feel for an easy car to drive .. might give the alfa 2.0 a try just for some aero grip on the slippery tracks

Nitro TC - stratus 2.1 ( 2.0 in 200 mm ) - gotta love that turn in help a cut line trimed 2.1 will give you and its shaped like a bullet for those long back straights and high speeds ... again .. this year I may try an alfa 2.0 and see how things go ...

those are just MY opinions with the setups I run and on the tracks I run on what I think works the best for ME .. everyone is intitled to there own opinions and remember .. each track and chassis will work differently ... and react differently ... I run strickly associated cars for touring ... these bodys may not work at all for say a Xray chassis .. or a HPI chassis ... its all about what matches YOUR driving style and track ... and remember .. this is a HOBBY ... with TOY cars ... there is no need for the name calling and bad mouthing that a few on here have done ... it just drags down the name of the hobby

have fun racing

E

Last edited by roddude65; 05-18-2004 at 05:59 AM.
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Old 05-18-2004, 06:49 AM   #70
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roddude65 - I do agree that it is car specific and track specific but I'd like to think that people do work on their setup. I've spent months setting up my car and have felt a difference after switching/replacing bodies. I'm not the greatest driver either but I have felt a difference. Rctech is racer based, almost everybody here races and has done for quite a while so I think people really should be given the benefit of the doubt, unless what they post is completely over the top...
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Old 05-18-2004, 10:11 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by Soviet
Hey Steve...I'm flattered that you personally responded. Great job with speedtech, I've been a customer since 2001.

Anyhow....with the pleasantries out of the way; my point:

At the club level I have always noticed a good deal of "bandwagoning." As in everyone seems to jump on the latest "it" thing or trend. As the owner of speedtech, no doubt you've profited hundereds of thousands of dollars because of this fact. I'm not saying it's wrong at all, matter of fact it's half the fun of R/C...getting new goodies...but here's my point:

Most folks who say "this body does this" or "this body does that" have ZERO clue as to what they're talking about. They'll blame a bad setup on a particular body and say it's "bad...or has low downforce...etc...blah blah blah...."

My experience has shown that it all starts with T.A.S. or Tires Angles Suspension. One MUST learn and get a decent working knowledge of the true effects of camber, caster, toe, kickup, roll center, ride height, shock setup and spring rates before they can say anything about how a body effects a car.

Hence my and alot of other folks I know who will tune 80% of their cars setup before slapping on the lexan. The last 20% does of course involve the body...however you need to build a strong foundation before you start worrying about the roof.
Soviet,

Ahhh...gotcha, I think I understand your point. Basically what you're saying is racers should learn the basics of tuning first before just throwing on different body shells to try and get the car to work and not focus on other aspect of tuning. That's a good point, and I guess what I was trying to say in my post was I don't want racers to neglect the body as a tuning option either.

And also, thank you for your support since 2001 I sincerely appreciate it

Steve Wang
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Old 05-18-2004, 10:21 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by SpeedTech
Soviet,

Ahhh...gotcha, I think I understand your point. Basically what you're saying is racers should learn the basics of tuning first before just throwing on different body shells to try and get the car to work and not focus on other aspect of tuning. That's a good point, and I guess what I was trying to say in my post was I don't want racers to neglect the body as a tuning option either.

And also, thank you for your support since 2001 I sincerely appreciate it

Steve Wang
SOMEONE FINALLY UNDERSTANDS ME!!!

Yeah...thats exactly what I mean Steve...

I'm NOT saying to make all the critical setup changes to the car while naked ... I'm not saying that at all. What I AM saying is that people should get their BASIC setup as far as rideheight, springs, angles, etc. all correct before slapping a body on and blaming a bad setup on a body...thats what I'm really trying to get at.

But Yes...a body IS a very effective tuning aid...but will not singlehandedly fix a crappy setup or completely ruin a good one either...

-Sean
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Old 05-18-2004, 11:12 AM   #73
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hey soviet,

i know you was'nt aiming at me personally but at certain tracks and in certain conditions, once the car is set up the shell is important, weather the grip is high or low the shells give you the option. i think that if you set up the car to run the track well with no shell on, then add a shell, the handling characteristcs of the cars will surley change!! if im wrong i appolgise and stand to be corrected


thanks J-P
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Old 05-18-2004, 11:40 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by J-P
hey soviet,

i know you was'nt aiming at me personally but at certain tracks and in certain conditions, once the car is set up the shell is important, weather the grip is high or low the shells give you the option. i think that if you set up the car to run the track well with no shell on, then add a shell, the handling characteristcs of the cars will surley change!! if im wrong i appolgise and stand to be corrected


thanks J-P
No J-P...your 100% spot on...Steve got what I was really getting at. My main gripe is with folks who don't really know how to get the BASIC setup on their car. I'm talking about getting rid of high speed push, low speed oversteer...etc. When getting a car dialed in...and I'm talking about the most baseline of setups, the body is not needed because of this: If you get the car to within 80% of where you want it without the body...then you have the foundation of a very neutral setup and once you add the body will know EXACTLY how it's effecting the chassis. Then if it's got too much rear DF...just trim or re-adjust the wing, etc.

The method I outline was taught to me by Pro-Pancar drivers in FL when I was young. They always told me that the car itself needs to be nearly perfect before you start slapping on the Lexan, because once you do put the body on...you'll see EXACTLY how it effects the chassis and can take the rest of your tuning from there.

It's a way to eliminate variables in a cars suspension setup when getting it all figured out. Think of this. If you can get the car running wickedly quick and stable without ANY aerodynamic influences, all you do is add to it's stability once you put the body on for final tuning.

One last point: If you tune a car with a particular body type from the very start, if you need to change bodies for any reason, you may end up having to make alot more changes to the setup than if you tried setting your car up as I describe.

Peace!

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Last edited by Soviet; 05-18-2004 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 05-18-2004, 11:53 AM   #75
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hey,

your right,the set-up is most of it. you sound like you know alot about set-ups , i think i may have to pick your brain from from
to time from over here in England ,

thanks and peace

J-P
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